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The Founder Formula
The Founder Formula

Episode · 3 years ago

Nir Polak, Co-founder Exabeam - Embracing Design Partners Rather Beta Testers

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today’s guest is Nir Polak, Cofounder and CEO at Exabeam

Founders of tech solutions should sign design partners. Not beta testers. 

What we talked about:  

  • Design partners and how they’re superior to beta testers 
  • Benefits of refining your product market fit early in your to market process 
  • Creating a heat map of scaling communications 
  • Finding investors  

Find this episode and more Founder Formula at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

... ask what are they not what are they trying to complete? The founder Formula Brings you in behind the curtains and inside the minds of today's brave executives at the most future leaning startups. Each interview will feature a transformative leader who's behind the wheel at a fast paced and innovative tech firm. They'll give you an insider's look at how companies are envisioned, created and scaled. We hope you're ready. Let's get into the show. Hey, everybody, we're back again for a new episode of the show. My name is Todd Galena, and running point for the show is the chief innovation officer at trace three, Mark Campbell. Mark. Hello, hi, thank you for pronouncing the name correctly, Todd. I appreciate that. You're welcome. So, Mark. Today, this this recording day, we are living in two completely different worlds. I'm in California where, once again, sadly, part of this southern California area is on fire, and it's just shocking to hear that you are in like blizzard conditions out there in Denver. Yeah, it turns out you need some of this snow to make the skiing worthwhile, but when it falls on the city it's kind of a flows. Everything down to a trickle. But out there, you guys are on fire again. Has that? Is that like? Yeah, nonstop now, right. Yes, it's like a new season. You know, they have summer, fall burning season and then it goes into winter. Yeah, well, the fires in California. Yeah. Well, you know who's behind it, all right, it's Canada. Canada, they're the ones all this global warming stuff. Dude, gonna be Tropics up in Saskatchewan before you know it. Canada will be the big winner and in this whole global warming game, is what you're saying? Oh yeah, I mean anything to get a good beach volleyball team. Boys, they struggled in that eventil Olympic. So this is it, this is their master plant. Yeah, Bob sled and hockey nailed. Beach Volleyball the next frontier. Oh, so maybe it's time to get to our guests. Yeah, that's not a bad idea. I think that's what the audience is actually hoping, hoping and praying for right now. Hey, everybody, I wanted to pause just for a second to let you all know that we're really excited to announce that this podcast is sponsored by net APP, which is another company that was born out of the Silicon Valley. So they fit right in. And I like to introduce trace three CO founder, Bret mckinnis, and he's going to tell us a little bit about what's going on over at net APP. Hey, todd, you know, I think many technology leader today are thinking. I know AI is a critical part of our future, but how do I ai word I start? Fortunately, net up has taken the first steps with...

...their on TAP AI architecture. Sounds Great. So what's the AI architecture? So the AI architecture is a validated design that includes the world's fastest all flash storage raised from net APP and the world's fastest GPU enabled dgx service from Nvidia, designed to handle the largest, most complex data sets in use today, with the ability to scale as those data sets grow, because today data is the new currency and speed is the new scale and businesses today need to keep up or get left behind. Sounds Great. So where can our listeners hear more about this? For more information, simply go to net apcom Ai. Thanks Brett. Thanks. Okay, today we have the cofounder and CEO of x a beam, which is a security detection and behavior analytics company located in the Silicon Valley. He's been published an entrepreneur magazine and earlier this year his company race seventy five million dollars in funding led by Sapphire and light speed ventures, which is no small task. Let's say hello to near Polack. Welcome, near, thank you, thank you for having me on the show. That to be here. You're welcome. We're super excited to have you. So for contacts. Can you tell us a little bit about your company and why you started it? Sure. So we are in the security management space. There's a lot of acronym in security. So this market is called Siem, situty information event management. It's one of the bigger markets and security. It's a multi billion dollar market, the third one by side. So when we started the company, the goal for us was to build the next duration of security management and a lot of different trends happen in the market. You know, in street management started in the early sertain, kind of like the two thousand. It was just very simple network security information. We've had like firewalls and IPS is back at that time and then data became much more prevalent. You started having today, what's more cloud, much more IOT, much more of a mobile workforce. So you have kind of a big data problem. They're such, are becoming much more complex, moving from very simple, snapping grab threats to low and slow threats. And I want to throw a lot of acronyms out there that we do in security kind of force and fear mongering, but everybody knows fishing and the purpose of fishing. Still The identia folks kind of move undetected and it's very sophisticated threat in the third thing that's well known about security is that we don't have enough people. There's a big skill gaps and how do you close that gap? To our goal was how do we build a system that's able to make sense of all your security data, wherever that is, on premise, in the cloud, with your mobile workforce, and how do you have the machine piece, all these pieces of puzzle together identify these threats in automatically response to them? So we've been growing rapidly. So we're six years old right now since inception. We're about our fourth years selling. We track ourselves against other publicly trade it secreaty companies where we're there at our stage and we are tracking better than all. So it's been going very, very well for us. Well, certainly you've you've got some long chops in the cyber security market, red hot market, top of...

...mine for just thought every one of the customers that we talked to. But X me, of course, was not your first Gig in this space. You're like decade over, Tomperva. Right, Yep, I'm one of the folks that did improve a prior I've been really relocating back and forth between Tel Aviv and the bay area. It's my third time over and now next to me is a hundred percent in American company. We just recently acquired a company out of Israel, so now we do have presents over there and continue to invest there because there's really good innovation talent in that area. I've held many, many roles in my security career. So we live in breath security. So build products, ran customer success, ran product management, did corporate corpse strategy, so a lot of different things, and now it's kind of the first time in the CEO for the last six years. So I mean obviously in prove one of the most respected names and cyber security. You're working over there and one day you looked in the mirror and you said, you know what, I'm gonna go start my own GIG. I'm sure it wasn't as simple as that, but but what in your background kind of led you to believe, Hey, I think I'm going to go. I think I'm going to go solo here, start my own company and branch off in the new to section? What leved the that? So you know, when you do a lot of things, and I look at kind of like companies and building companies very similar to art. You kind of have a blank canvas and you have an idea and you want to start painting your picture. And a lot of us founders that's what we want to do. We want to grow companies. And when we did IMPERV a prior it was very, very successful. But was very clear to me is that I played in two different markets with him per. We played in what's called the information security market, kind of helping protect enterprises, and we played in the web fraud detection market, helping kind of combat fraud, you know, banking fraud, retail frauds. And what was clear when I was playing in those market is in information security in the enterprise. I we throw a lot of acronyms insider threat and modern threats and apt and all that, but if you kind of want to simple it and dumb it down, all of the threats we see an information security today. All these data breaches, if it's from the you know, target, to Nieman Marcus, to the OPM to in them, to all of these different threats, all of these breaches and essence are very much similar to fraud in nature. What is the external after trying to do? He's trying to compromise one of your trusted employees. He's trying to impersonate them to be able to move undetected, hiding in plain sight. In the question is, how do you find your imposture within your own it and burnt in the front spake frosters steal identities of your consumers to break into the bank account, to buy goods in their name, and there's been a lot of technology being built to combat fraud. So what we wanted to do is, how do I take that, I anti fraud technology, and build a solution for that for information...

...security? What kind of premise to where the idea came from, and we started. So kind of started in two thousand and thirteen. In order to do what we do, we knew that we needed to have real good access to customers. So we sign what we called design partners. We allowed customers to have signed reels the deal of the lifetime. We told them, Hey, customers, if you give us full access to your environment, we work with you to kind of look at your security data to help you find, quote unquote, think about these fosters or these attackers in your environment. You know we will give you a smoking deal at the end of it. And we signed all kinds of design partners. So we signed safe way, the big grocery chain. We signed a union bank, which is a midconst size bank on the West Coast. We had a couple of others and they allowed us to have full access their environment, and that's really has to jettison our innovation. By highly recommended for a lot of founders to have folks you can learn with way before why we're just trying to vet your idea and why are building prototypes to make sure that the idea flies. Access to environment as early and possible as been extremely helpful for us to kind of jettison our innovation in our time to urge thing. That's impressive. You guys are using the term design partners as an easy way to kind of, you know, on board potential customers and to it sounds like dial in the product a little bit. That's amazing. Yeah, the product market fit exactly. So I think that a lot of times you think about a good idea but it doesn't fly in the real market. So what do you do? You start to building ALSA's and Betas and you only meet the market, you know, Sept for powerpoint presentations with some sort of offering to see the whites in the eyes of your users, you know, probably eighteen months into the progression of the company. So the early you can bring that in for rapid deployments, to meeting with them, to spending time. It just allows you to fine tune your might, you know, product market fit, and if you get that right and you're doing it in the big market that has a lot of blue waters, you can fly quickly, which is kind of what happened as here at accent. That's great, Super Smart. You know, most people use a term like hey, we want to beata something to you want to try something, but when you use the term like we want to engage with you as a design part it just seems like the much softer language that's going to get them on board sooner. It's much earlier than a Beta like you'll literally build a small piece of code and you're going to go prototype and you're going to test it in their environment. You just see what did it do and you're going to show it to them say hey, guys, to this provide value out and doesn't have any yes, just spitting out stuff, but you can help and sit with them to say, and this insightful for you, or not you can engage the value of what you are trying to go for. Do you line up your design partners before or after getting BC funding, or did you do this to kind of exhibit traction in the market and then go to the VC's out how that all work out? Or before? We did it.

So we were lucky enough that we already had like traction. We had a really good called Rolodex of Chief Security folks that we knew, so we can go to that and now, in retrospective, they got a deal of a lifetime. Yeah, for sure. So you mentioned safe way as as a design partner and I'm sure they stuck with you. Guys. Do you have some, you know, gratifying success stories that you can share with our audience? Sure I you know there's insecurity. There's not a lot we can share. So I will share a couple public ones and probably more recent public because we just had our user conference couple weeks back and we get pressed join and they wrote kind of published a couple of articles. So we've been doing pretty well. Also in the airline industry. One of our customers are Delta Airlines and they were initially an Idm Qatar shot and we sol we have different offerings so we don't necessarily have to rip and replace the existing security management products. We can also turbo charge or modernize them. So just sell a brain and automatic response engine on top of that without ripping, you know, an incumbent allowing the data to be there and so workflows that the study operation centers using with their incumbent. And we did that with with Delta airline. We sold initially we ran on top of their IDM to rate our deployment, put our brain and the responsion engine on top of that and then earlier in this year we had a project to rip and replace Idem that's been a very successful deployment for us and kind of growing with on the same article, I'll see United Airlines is a customer of ours and we're using them to provide different security keepabilities on top of that. So just that we have more airlines just can't share. I'm going to use out of the public one. We've done very well with even globally, and TT data decided to standardize on our platform as your global security management platform in three different GEOS, Japan, North America and an NIA. So we went through Antdata. You familiar with it. It's a very large data provider and security provider globally. They've done a lot of acquisitions about the years. They ended up with different about fifteen different study management platforms, and they went to market to standardize on one and we want kind of that global purturement. And now we are there central secuty management globally monitoring over a hundred and think twenty different hundred twenty thousand employees worldwide and a lot of other success and federal and Theod and into and I sit again talk about those. Now. We're any of those design partners from the kind of your initial scoping exercises. No, they have not. They haven't been but we're still deployed with a lot of those design partners and we've been growing with them. The former see soo of safe way move to levies. So we he purchased our products, also public prior. So He's purchased the at Levi's and we are their security managment platform over there. And I assume, like when...

...you're working with these designs partners, especially in the early days, you're getting a ton of feedback. Did any that feedback cause you to pivot into areas that were kind of unforeseen, or was it more of a minor tweaking left and right, or did you have like, some big discoveries along the way? We had some big discoveries along the way and and that's kind of why you have to do it early. That's kind of product market Fay. You know, initially when we started the company we thought that it's all about the analytics, it's all about the machine learning and making sense and modeling all the different data. But what after spending a lot of time with a Studio Operation Center, we learned that where they spend most of the time is organizing this data think about a an enterprise and the enterprise, let's say there's somewhere in their cloud adoption. So they have data and Amazon and data, you know, on their data centers and data and the corporate environments and a mobile work for person. Now they're starting to get more SASS applications. Their Ip footprint is everywhere and when an attack happens it doesn't a year to stay in one network. It's everywhere right. The attack is just moving around. He's accessing data or whatever that is. That could be a file share on a window system or nazivised or it could be your box or dropbox or one drive in the cloud where you maybe acting applications. These can be your staps behind on premister. This can be your nets. And what a lot of the security operation analysts are doing there trying to piece these pieces of the puzzle together to build a timeline. It has nothing to do with running analytics. It's just as they want to see the story. Not even ask you the story is good or not, just what's the storyline? And what we realize is we need to automate that. We need to automate the portion of the investigation of how do you build that piece to puzzle together. So we've built an engine that is able, through a lot of technologies, kind of time steries, link analysis, build the puzzle instead of the human and accelerate that investigation time, automating that, and then you can come to our products any piece of the puzzle. For example, let's say you come from an alert that happens from one of your firewalls or your anti malware products. We will show you the entire puzzle. So what would take you hours to do and one of the incumbents like splump with creating and pivoting in our product, you can do in a matter second. And that was a very, very important revelation for us, was that it's not just about running analytics, it's about making sure you have the complete story to run your analyts on. That context, in a sense where time is a very important component. And if you ask a lot of our customers why do they buy our product, wouldn't say it because we had our best analytics. It's because we are the one they're able to stitch the story back together well and certainly assess in your early days with the design partners, getting that feedback in them being able to adapt your product on...

...the fly. You kind of have to rely on a ton of skills, either that you've earned the hard way or you've acquired or broad in. But of course, when you're picking your founding team you're probably looking for that variety of skills. I have that right. I mean, how did you pick the founding team that you ventured out of the out into the big white world with the first? So just about the prior point is yes, you need to do it, though, when your canvas is still pretty clean. That's why the earlier you can do that the better from kind of the product market fit, because pivoting later on is much more difficult to do. We're going the founding team, where the team in general. I think it's important for any leader to be vulnerable and they have to ask what are they not what are they trying to complete? And then you look at the team and you're trying to build a team that is completing you and you, as a leader, you know your goal is to facilitate the team. Then just have all the answers and that's comes something I learned along the way. So when I was building my team, was looking for folks that are able to completely and I still do this today by looking for executives, even though I've done many different positions. I am looking for folks that are different than I, as maybe we have the same culture, in the same belief but their capabilities and shops are completing me. And then completely, organization, kind of a Jerry McGuire School of startups. Uh Yeah, you completely exactly. So, when you were pick up your founding teams and those people that kind of take that chance with these people that you had known before, or had you gone out and sought someone who was, I don't know, super good at marketing or super good at sales or what have you, to complete that? Were they just people you knew or was that an intentional effort? So both people I knew that complete me and both people that you know with what I the team, I knew we didn't have and we needed to look elsewhere. So our CTO, for example, as someone that prior to sturing this company, I did not know, but he was really relevant to what we did. He Ran Engineering, a company called Sumo Logic, which is very, you're elevant to what we do in our space. And you know, what he brought is a lot of knowledge. He ran a lot of engineering teams, large and small, and what was relevant to us the most was was what he did at Tom a logic, and he's been great, still here running a lot of our kind of cloud transformation project. Nice, nice, a mirror in doing research for the opportunity to chat with you today. I saw a great article that you wrote about the importance of communication to your leadership team into the company as a whole. You have a very unique approach to this. Would you mind sharing some of your thoughts on communication with our audience? Yeah, sure that communication is always a very big topic, especially in hyper growth. So that other kind of the initial days when you start a company it's very much a family and everybody knows everyone and you get to spend a lot of time together, and I'm a very strong believer spend, you know,...

...multiple years in the army, like anyoding from Israel, and you kind of need to build a camaraderie. So a lot of happy hours and just spending time at lunches with the team and in the it's very informal communications and happen all the time and everybody is well aware and as you grow you kind of have a more extended family of folks that you know are always around the world and how do you start communicating to them? How do you communicate about the successive and how do you communicate about the failures? And what's the culture you allow the communication to kind of work within? And we, as an executive leadership team, have spent a lot of time around communication and how do we share the information, create accountability and also celebrate the different successes and recognize the team for the success of an efforts that we've done. That's part of transitioning from I would call it like a toddler company in the early days for now like a teenager. So we spent a lot of time on communications and scaling the communications. I've did different exercises, even with my management team. For example, for some of the off sites, we ask every team or every leader to rank the communication they have with the rest of their peer keys. Kind of very simple, just color coded green, yellow and red, and if it's yellow or red, you know they need to explain why and what are the issues and then I take all of that and we kind of create a heat map. So for everyone we say what they told about the other teams and what the team's told about us. And just by creating that fabric it allows us to kind of find the hot spots where we do need to kind of figure out and fix different communication paths within the organization. So I'm curious when, when you put together the seat map, you were asking them to rate their communications with with each other. Well, you see maybe one person saying my communication with George is a green, and then George will say, Oh, my communication back with todd is a red, and then you you find that you've got kind of an issue there you have to deal with. Yep, there's a mismatch. It happens, and that just says something about the health of the communication. That's not necessary transparent. It could be very cordial, but not transparent open, and my goal is it's something you also do any armies like these very elaborate three s s to I say, let's put it as it is. If you think that we have issues, we should talk about it and just a way to kind of like by doing this exercise and by Bob Seeing something that George or vice versa. That alone says something about the relationship and then they have to go and take care of it. Well, certainly you know when you're a smaller team that's a little bit more concentrated. I hesitate to say easier, but more concentrated. How do you get all on the same page? Like you're getting ready to go out and make that VC pitch. You you mentioned that you by that point, I already been working with some design partners and now you're getting ready to go out there and say, Hey, we need to inject some funds into...

...the company and really, you know, start hitting highway speeds are. How do you get everyone in sync about that and and making that first pitch? I know that you were back by lightspeed. We had the great privilege of having grew Chahal on the on a previous show from light speed, and those guys are a class act. I mean they see some thousands of pitches. How do you get to the point where you use walking there and knock that one out of the park? Yeah, I want to say it's hard, but it wasn't really. So couple things. What is because we were able to do design partners and because we were able to have traction out of the gate. Not only is it of a sound team, but also now you have, you know, traction and then with that and you know followers or going to talk to you about the value that they've got from your product. So for us, and I don't know how common it did, fundraising was never difficult to do. It was something fairly easy. I would said that if fund raid, if running a company was as easiest, fundraising to be a walk in the park. Most of the time it's scaling the business and if you're real building a really good business, you're not building a company to raise funding. Right, if you're building a real business, the investors are going to come and it's more about we have the privilege to allow to pick who do we want to join our team and our board and who we feel will be able to give us a good direction, not just money, because money was kind of easy to catch for us. So I would say that the pitches were never that difficult to do. If you have a clear strategy and a clear positioning and clear traction, you put on a presentation. I can tell you for all the last rounds it was mostly me alone doing it, maybe me and the CFL, and that's kind of about it. It you know, it didn't require a lot of cycles and a lot of that's great to hear that that part was relatively easy for you guys and it's just a matter of finding the right investors. That's a little bit of a unique experience from some of the folks that we've had. It going goes back to you know, I'm a strong believe in this design partnership if you're able to show market product fit and you're really working with a good cohort of customers out of the gate. You know, I think in our we also had like the advantages of success in the past, but that alone propels your velocity. That's a velocity for everything, including the velocity of a fund rate. Certainly it sounds like it does for sure. Hey, I'll ask you a quick question about the analyst community, because there's some there's some mystery around that, especially with some of our listeners. Gartner, the competitive space for you guys, and you mentioned at the start of the PODCASTS, it's the it's the same space again, which stands for security, information and event management. You guys see that as a benefit to be categorized or do you see that as...

...something that could potentially limit you in the market place? It is a benefit. When you build a company, you have to intercept funds. You know there has to be money passing hands on what you do put you're solving a problem with the problem, have to have some sort of dollar and the bigger you know the market, the more you can grow in that market and grow your companies and make your customer successful. And them is one of the bigger cams and Secrey manage and in security. So it is being a leader. And you know, a market that's a couple of billion in size does help us for pell because it allows us to remain a standalone company and continue to propel innovation. We grow to be broader than just Sim in the future, yes, but for now it is a big enough company in any big enough opportunity for us to continue to innovate and make sure we're solving the best, you know, the problem, the best we can for customers to make sure that they're successful in transitioning from their old incumbent sins to what now Gardner's calling the modern sense. Yeah, there certainly has been a ton of debate about what the new semas called simplus plus M to Doughto the modern sem the simpsons. There could be all kinds of kids and names we get thrown at that and you mentioned earlier that you have picked an enormous target address ball market and in doing so you've got a lot of headspace to grow, certainly from your early days as a small start up to where you guys are now, which is a formidable force in a very large market. What's been some of the challenges you've had was scaling your company but still keeping that that hungry new car smell. How do you retain culture and envision as you scale, a scale a company? Yeah, it goes back to communication and him and a growth is painful. It is. It's not a walk in the park when you look at the numbers and kind of it all looks great and you're kind of like growing and lightspeed and but it is painful. I it's very much like a rocket ship and rocket ship has has g forces on it and they create pain and every small mistake that would be for I don't know, as thirty percent company growth would be not, you know, a not issue for us. You know, a mistake, it could be really painful and kind of course correct there and we've had those in our past, even recently, and those are painful. So how do we do that? Through communication, transparency, telling the company what the issues are and what are we doing to fix them and up hell out and a suss accountability over metrics to be able to kind of continue and propel the growth. But it doesn't come without cost. You know, when we when we did our prior company together, it was good, but it took a while and it was painful, but lot less painful than this. This is something that you're you know you're growing. We are now probably where our part company, or six were part company, was...

...ten years in. So it comes with more pressure and it comes but even we are to some considered seasons, we still do a lot of mistakes and some of these mistakes are painful, painful for the entire company, and we own our mistakes and we don't Ay we screwed up and we're going to fix it and the course correct. And do you find that that's accepted or are there folks that kind of one mistake and they're out? Or have you been able to retain retain your cultures? Some of those saying we are attaining yes, well, I say that people. You know, when you start growing and at it's a whole new discussion with talent acquisition, how to make sure you're bringing the right people in the door when you're kind of doubling in size every year. But people do believe in what we're doing and they to the transparency. They they see. You know that we acknowledge the issues and the options were taking against them, and you know we do. We're looking for people that have the stamina to do this grows. You know, if you're just looking to kind of like attached yourself to this rocket ship and kind of propel with it, you know you're not really helping. You're just creating more conduct drack. So how we had missires, yes, for sure, but that's, you know, here and they're not not to common majority of the fucking yeah. Well, and there's certainly a lot of let's say books, or even bug gasts, I guess, the talk about the startups and some of the pitfalls and and so forth out there. What would you say are some of the myths that you have encountered that, were you to be giving advice to someone just starting off on the road or even looking to fund a company or looking to acquire technology for emerging Tech Company, what are some of the myths out there that you found it just simply be untrue, as there's myths. I'll kind of talk about my kind of mistakes along the way. Maybe. So when you're in hypergrowth, hiring too soon, we're firing too late. That happen and that's painful. If you're I was at a CEO event. You talk at lights be a CEO event yesterday of Lightspeed, and we kind of a round table and you last all these very, very season CEOS. What's your biggest mistake is? I say we never fired too early. We always are too late and it's hard when you're growing so rapidly to kind of do that. So that's the first. The second is remain true to your direction. If you've done the product market fit and you have the season to kind of understand the strategy and execution, stay the course through the you know, and a lot of people are going to be rooting to you to fail, especially in the early days, and you just need to have the stamina to go through that. And what worked for you? You know, you go through these phases and then real phases like do a twenty, twenty, fifty and fifty two, a hundred and over a hundred. What work to get you to this point will not necessarily help you to move forward...

...from that. That's the thing I'm still learning. So I use I have a lot of advisers that I talk to, people are more season than I am, and I get to perspective, either from market knowledge or from operational experience, just, you know, throwing ideas out there and for leaders in general, be a very vulnerable leader. You have to tell your team your building a team and it's really a team and you're looking for them to we said complete. You guire back. You have to be vulnerable the same guys. I don't know. Let's think about it together, and it becomes your job as a leader to facilitate discussions and I've learned that I don't have all the answers and that's why I'm hiring a really good team. Want them to talk about it and it's my role to, you know, help us talk about the most difficult points that are strategic risk to our company and make sure that those are the ones that were tack on. Well, there this is this has been great. We've learned a ton, especially around this whole design partners thing. That's that's a big epiphany, I think for marking myself and I think for a lot of our listeners and and you're obviously a terrific, vulnerable leader who surrounded himself with, you know, the right type of mentors, mentorship to kind of keep things going. You know, you mentioned a second ago that that you that there are folks that are rooting for you to fail. I know that that's hard. That's hard to hear, it's hard to believe. I know that it's true, I know that that that, but we are certainly rooting for you guys to win. Is there anything that maybe you didn't have a chance to mention on the podcast that you'd like to share with the listeners? Know I'm you know, I would love to see and kind of listen to the other podcast you have in the series just for me to learn more about other founders and what they've done. I love hearing stories and kind of like improving my solve. I really enjoyed being on the podcast. Thanks for having me well, thanks for time out of your day in here. I know that you've got a growing company to run, so we greatly appreciate you moving moving some things to have time in your day to come and chat with a with a bunch of folks like dot myself. So that's great. On behalf of our listeners, I thank you for Sharon kind of let us. You mentioned your mistakes and the way you guys do things a bit distinctively at acts being greatly appreciate. Thank you. Trace three is hyper focused on helping it leaders deliver business outcomes by providing a wide variety of data center solutions and consulting services. If you're looking for emerging technology to solve tried and true business problems, trace three is here to help. We believe all possibilities live in technology. You can learn more at trace threecom podcast. That's trace, the number threecom podcast. You've been listening to the founder formula,...

...the podcast for all things start up, from Silicon Valley to innovators across the country. If you want to know what it takes to lead tomorrow's tech companies, subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time,.

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