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The Founder Formula
The Founder Formula

Episode · 2 years ago

Lior Div, Co-founder Cybereason - Software as a Weapon: A Soldier Founds a Cybersecurity Company

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

“Software is a weapon.”  

  

And the thing about weapons is, they can be used to attack. 

  

Or they can be used to defend.  

  

And if you know how they can be used to attack, it only makes them all the easier to defend when the time comes.  

  

On a recent episode of The Founder Formula, we sat down with Lior Div, who traded his life in the Israeli army, for a life as a CEO & Co-Founder of a cybersecurity company. We talked all about:  

  

- His time in the Israeli army and how his experiences there set him up for a career as a CEO 

  

- What it was that prompted him to start his own company  

  

- Why it’s not a matter of IF you get hacked, but a matter of WHEN 

  

Listen to this and all of The Founder Formula episodes at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

When I'm saying it's a look, I'm going to build a company that will be here, that's going to stay forever and gonna protect and enable the new lifestyle that we have, that everything will be connected and we are going to protect it. All you need to hire people that they look at it and said, you know what, this is possible, let's do it. The founder Formula Brings you in behind the curtains and inside the minds of today's brave executives at the most future leaning startups. Each interview will feature a transformative leader who's behind the wheel at a fast paced and innovative tech firm. They'll give you an insiders look at how companies are envisioned, created and scaled. We hope you're ready. Let's get into the show. Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. My Name is Todd Galina, and with me is Mark Campbell, chief innovation officer at trace three. Mark, how's it going, man? Hey, going pretty good. Going pretty good. How you doing? Taught? Hanging in there, super excited to be on the phone with you and to chat all things founder. You had a big day today. Hopefully I can share that with the folks. Yeah, no, Super Big Day today. You're on a recurring call. Today that was hosted by the Mayfield Fund, which is a Silicon Valley BC firm. They have celebrating their fifty anniversary mark, and I can do that. Yeah, I know those guys. They're kind of one of the originals and you know, it's kind of like Peter Best, drummer for the Beatles, right. These guys been around since day one. They if you kind of go down the list of the companies they've rolled out, it's really a WHO's who some of the you know, like they did the funding on lift, for instance. So I mean, you know, these guys knocking out of the park more time than most. Their call was with their CIO network and it was intended by almost hundred people. Joining you on this regular call was a good friend of ours, Paul Chapman, who's the CIO of box. Between you, Paul and Gamille, you guys were talking about the whole back to the new normal, I think, was the big theme of the discussion. HMM. Yeah, and I mean you know, no one's got a crystal ball, right. I mean we don't know exactly what's going to be, you know, turn out to be the new normal. But since March twenty seven I've spoken to a hundred of our clients with the tech execs there and kind of got the vibe from them as to, you know, the challenges they're facing and how it's a little bit different for everyone out there, but some definite patterns start to emerge and so we kind of dug into the super cool by the way, Paul Funny, Funny Guy, super intelligent and knows like just about everyone. It was really cool to hear here his take on it. Yeah, there was a ton of great information. I found the discussion to have some pretty great like moments. It's some of the cool things that I found out, which I didn't know until I was on this call, was tell a health obviously has gone up from one percent to fifty percent. Yeah, I didn't realize it was at one percent before, and you get the sense that that's never going to go back down that low ever again. No, Nope, that genies out of the bottle and and it's super interesting to talk to healthcare companies about what the long term knock on effects of that are going to be. As an example, how much square footage do we need in hospitals now if we're going to have clinicians that can handle fifty percent of their their patient load remotely. What you know? What does that mean from a real estate point of view? What does that mean from a regional healthcare provider? Do I have to be regional? Could I reach out a there's a lot of knock on effects of the super interesting stuff. Yeah, for sure. And Paul brought up another good tidbit. He talked about the flattening of the Work Day, which I think both you and I are probably experiencing. That's where, basically, people are starting earlier because they can get into their quote unquote, office sooner and then they tend to stay later, you know, they push off some work till later, but then there's that lull in the...

...middle, is what he's describing. In overall it's a flattening of the work day for for most people. And he also, you know, wait into the fact that there could be some risks, talking about burnout and things like that. Sure, yeah. Well, I think it's had fascinating that the lull is right at the same time judge Judy comes on. So not sure or relation there, but there might be. The certainly is it our house, and I have to mention as much as people are working from home. Mark, you made a great point. You'd been talking to some customers and the quote I heard from you was it's very hard to build an aircraft wing over Webb X. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you think about it, once we get back to are quotes, whatever normal is, there are some things that just fundamentally need to be done, you know, in a group setting a consolidated, centralized workforce. But certainly anything that that doesn't is being re evaluated by most people right now, and rightly so. Yeah, yeah, well, it was great, nice work, and will send out the link to that quote unquote broadcast so people can check it out. The best takeaway that I got, though, I can't believe that we got Bozz scaggs to sing Liedo as our intro going into that, I have brought tear to my eye took me back. For those of you who don't know, before we started recording, mark and I were talking about a serious Xm radio station called Yacht Rock, which, shockingly, he and I had both listened to completely independently of one another, without really talking about it. So I think that that's something that might have been a song you heard on yacht rock? Mark. Absolutely, yeah, you got it. You got to just rock out to your buzz scaggs whenever you can, just, you know, just get it out, or if you're not getting enough Christopher Cross in your life. Yeah, no, if you get caught between the Moon to New York City, yeah, that's where you need to be. All Right, man, let's get to our guests. Yeah, absolutely, Let's do this. The people are sick of US blathering. God, let's let's actually bring some talent in. Okay, as promised, our guest is an entrepreneur and cybersecurity expert. He's an IDF Medal of honor recipient for outstanding achievements as a commander and leader of an elite cyber security unit specializing and forensics, packing, reverse engineering and encryption. He's currently the CEO and Co founder of Cyber Reason, which he founded in two thousand and twelve. They have offices in London, Tel Aviv in Tokyo, with worldwide headquarters in the Boston Massachusetts. Please, welcome to the show. WE ARE DIV welcome, Lee or hi. How are you thought? Doing great, doing great, really excited to have you here with mark and myself. Hi, Hi'm arc hi. How's it going? I know these are kind of interesting times that we're all living in, but hopefully you're safe and sound and have loved ones around you. Yeah, I'm in Boston at my home. It's fascinating to see how the ward is morphine in front of our eyes. I believe that we are living right now in a very historic moment, so we will see how it's going to evolve. You got that right. You got that right. So Lee or just kind of a nice contextual question for tell us a little bit about cyber reason, why you started it, kind of what were you're bringing to the market. Give us a little bit of background on that. Yeah, absolutely. So first we need to say that cyberism is, in the field of cyber security, creating a defense platform for organization all over the world. But I think that the fascinating thing that is is happening is how we managed to take our vision and a new mindset that we brought to the cyber security space and translated eventually to a product, to a business model and to really translated to a way that we protect organization right now all over the words.

The story is starting. When you know, I serve in the military and then in a few government agencies that over there I was more responsible on the offensive side of the house lesson the Defferense side of the house. And basically what we learn in my experience back then is how hacker thinks. We, and I'm referring to be because it's me, myself and my two cofounders. You want a time stream of meat and you'll see our this was back in Israel's that writer was just imposted. No, no, that was back in Israel. Later on I moved in, my cofounders moved to to Boston as well. Ds that. That was in the early days of us, before even thinking about Cyberism as a company. I was part of those units and and over there we learn how to use software, almost, you know, innocence, as a weapon to achieve military goals and government goals. They did will later on to transfers. Did to a company that can protect people and information. Got It. Yeah, well, certainly, in looking at the cyberries and product and and the whole concept of looking for Malops, I think is a turn that you guys have come up with certainly fascinating and in the times we're living in right now, as we see this instantaneous switch to a remote workforce and the perimeter being extended into people's second bedrooms. The idea of endpoint security and the ability you guys have to spot malicious activity, I think is pretty crucial. Are you guys seeing like a change right now and up take a increase in demand? I mean our you guys seeing this current situation? Absolutely so. Right now, basically, if you think about it, what just happened in the past a few weeks, for years we were talking about the melting down of the perimeter and and changing to a zero trust environment and relying heavily on a cloud computing and suddenly, in one day, companies just was forced to send everybody home and they needed to keep protecting those and the jewels. They needed to keep protecting the companies and the different enterprise that exists out there. So we see right cloud a flax, a change in the behavior not just of the people the see cells and the people that need to protect their environment, we see a change in the way that hackers behave. So we started to see many attacks that in the past we did not see them kind of becoming more and more prominent, specifically around the ransomware because they believe that if they will attack now, the probability the hacker, the probability that they will get paid is just higher. So we see kind of three times more attacks, while incident response that coming to us right now. Yeah, that's that's certainly amazing and it'll be interesting to see whether this is the new normal or whether this is just a transitional spike. You know, the next couple of months, I think, are going to be very telling. Yeah, I believe that what we will see in the very near future is the fact that people getting used to working from remote and learning, and right now we help them to accelerate their learning how to protect them while they're doing it. I believe that it will be a new enabler for a new normal. I'm not sure that every company will stay working from remote or at home, but for sure some of the company will decide that this is the new no from them for them. Hey, lere, let's go back a little bit into your background, because we've had a few guests who have had military backgrounds, including, you know, Mark here. Can you tell us what that experience brought you and, secondarily, would you recommend it for for...

...young folks yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, the military background and the government background that I have is is very unique because it's very correlated to what I'm doing right now. And, believe me, when I was eighteen and join the army, I did not thought that this is something that will basically enable me to shape my career in the future. So, to make a long story short, for people that have the ability to join the right, you know, units that they have a passion to the work, I highly recommend it. But in my case, I was part of eight thousand two hundred unit. This is a unit that in a sense, equivalent to the Naessay here in the state, and in that unit I was basically part of reinventing or inventing a new methods in the field of cyber before usually we're laughing, we're saying before cyber was a world or before it was cool. So for us it was fascinating to almost invent a new kind of arena that people can play with. And we're talking about the field of espionage in cyber that it's it's actually today it's fascinating, but back then it was kind of a new thing that I believe that evolved eventually to cyber crime and to the thing that we see today. Yeah, it's the world has certainly changed in that respect. And I know that after the military you went through a number of companies, but at some point you walked into your day job and decided, hey, you know what, I'm going to go start my own company. How exactly did that transpire? You know, and making them transition, you know, first round military, then the commercial space and then after to starting your own company. WHO's the motivation? So what I saw around, and it's a fascinating story, because I spent the after the military, a few years in the commercial kind of start up and beg enterprise, and then I joined I had my own company that worked for one of the government agencies in Israel. We cannot mention the name, but you can figure out which, which one. And during those days, I think that the thing that fascinated me the most is was late two thousand and ten when Stas need, the attack on the nuclear facility in around become public. Suddenly it was a spotlight on us, and for me it was kind of sitting with my cofounder, Yonatan, and we were discussing is that is the world is going to change after that thing or not. We knew that if people will understand the magnitude of what happened, they will and and you know, the world is going to change. It's took the world another year, let's say, to really understand the magnitude of the changes just happened, and that was part of the trigger for us to decide to establish cyberism, because we believe that innocence. We had the ability to have a first row seat and to see the problem from the inside and to see how easy to hack to any organization that exists out there. And when we ask ourself, it's like how any enterprise can protect themselves? Do they have the right capability, platform, tools and mindset? And the answer was not. So that was part of the motivation to establish cyberrism, not just as a endpoint company. It's really to establish a company that can change the way that people thinking about security or securing their environment, network and the new lifestyle that we have, and this is the open and connected word. Well, let me, you mentioned something there I want to kind of go back and dig on. So you said, Hey, you got an insiders view and you saw the world just change. For those are our listeners who are not familiar with stock snap. This was a cyber warfare weapon. Let's just say that was effective in taking an...

...rainian nuclear power planet offline. Without getting into anything you can get into. You said you watch the world change. Do you mean that you saw how easy it was to infiltrate a very protected site and therefore you realize, okay, this is going to be coming back at us, or what did you mean by watching the world change? So I think two things. One is it was a great demonstration. The same way that you can build fascinating and nice thing with the software, you basically can use software as a weapon. So that was the demonstration of secks meet. The second thing we knew that in the world, or the new world, the ability to penetrate, infiltrate to any organization that exists out there. We knew that we had, you know, a hundred percent success of doing it. So, by combining those two observation, we just knew that any organization that exists out there that have any piece of information that it's interesting to somebody that know what they do in this field of cyber they will we penetrate it and they have no way to protect themselves. Again, we're talking about almost ten years ago. Yeah, we're exactly ten years ago. Well, I think that that's a very unique view. Being, if you will, kind of on the inside of that and now being on the outside saying, Hey, you know, companies need to get protected against that and and that sitting back and assuming people won't find what you have interesting and come after it is a bit naive and certainly, ten years later, that is the world that we live in now. When you went to start cyber reason, how exactly did you find the people that had that same vision and wanted to kind of go after that same end goal? Were these people you've known a long time, or these people went out and found to add to your skills mix? How did that all come about? So, when you want to assemble or when you want to build a company, I think that the first thing that you need to have is is a very, very big vision of understanding what you're trying to do. I'm speaking with many entrepreneurs that come in with an idea to feature in a product. This is not interesting. Its like you need to think about something big, something that can literally change you can change the world, and then you need to find people that can share with you the the same mindset that you know when I'm saying it's a look, I'm going to build a company that will be here, that going to stay forever and gonna protect and enable the new lifestyle that we have, that everything will be connected and we are going to protect it. All. You need to hire people that they look at it and say, you know what, this is possible, let's do it, and they're not fear from from the Child Challenge, and certainly those, those first couple of hires, are our credit cale. You have folks around the world, so you've got the founding team together and now you're starting to to kind of make those first critical hires. Were those all out of your personal network or were those people that you found the various locations around the world? So we started with people that we know very well. It's people that they are still with us, all of them, almost eight years after we started. Each and every one of them are super unique and super capable with their understanding of the problem, meaning the hackers mindset, and the ability to develop software and to build technology to protect companies. So that was beside the three founders, we had the first six people and after that, immediately in the US, we started to hire the right people. The second person here...

...in the US was head of product. We hired here because we believe that the combination of a very, very smart people that, in one hand, understand the problem but the other hand, understand the market and the needs and to walk the walk and talk, to talk the way that every sea cel is behaving right now. We needed to connect those two together because, men you that we have a big vision, but it will be a gap between how much we understand kind of the problem versus how people can observe what we're saying. Hey, we are I love that big vision and then connecting with you know, hire, making the right hires to be able to demonstrate that vision to potential customers. Thinking like I see. So I wanted to talk a little bit about getting BC money. So you obviously had a big idea, you had a big vision. You know, you mentioned something that can literally change the world. So how do you go from that big idea to getting BC MONEY? Yeah, I have a lot of fascinating stories about it. The first one starting with with the VC that we pitch. It was two thousand and twelve when we just established a company and when you know, we were very, very excited about kind of we're going to change the world and cyber and it's a new thing. And the first reaction that we got from the first fizzy that we pitch they told us it's a Clok. Nobody invested in security in the past twenty years. We don't see kind of any big change. So we understand what you're saying, but we don't think that the reason need for it. And for us it was, you know, we were laughing after that meeting because it's like we were seeing the change happening in front of our eyes. Well, they, you know, had no clue kind of that there is a big tsunami that coming at them right now with cyber so you get this type of of, you know, reaction. The best kind of advice that I can give people that gonna Pitch to vcs is is not you know it. You're going to hear a lot of know if the first thing that you hear is yes, you're lucky, but then you did not practice your muscle to evolve, because you will need to evolve in order to build a big company. And the big thing that usually I'm giving as an advice is when people ask me how to pitch to vcs. I'm saying you need to answer basically to question why you? Why Now? Because if you be able to answer those you two questions and understand why you are so unique and why now? What's happened right now in the market that it's make the thing that you want to do so unique, it will generate a magic in the conversation with any VC. Why you in our case was very, very simple because, as I said, we knew something that the world did not new. And why now? We saw the way before it was coming. So we manage to answer those two questions and that's was a huge enable for us to raise money. Another thing that help us massively is at the beginning, we can with the presentation and what we realize that in the presentation it's kind of boring. It's like many people coming to pitch to vcs with the presentation and it's the same thing again and again, the same five thing that they are skin so what we decided? We decided to create a movie. We created a movie that demonstrate the value that cyberism can bring and the full vision of what we're doing. It was a super visual movie and that was part of the way that we were starting every meeting with the vics. So it started with the movie that shows who we are, what we are, what we do, and then we were starting to drive to why you whine now, and that was a ute success for us. which...

...way. So when you say movie, you're talking about like a like a kind of exciting trailer intro type of thing. Are you talking a full, kind of end end story? No, I'm talking about something that it's super exciting, exactly like a trailer to an action movie, and we did not had any money back then. What we did we were looking in one of the Arts School for student that just graduated. We were looking for the one that graduated kind of with the most exciting, basically movie that they created. I approached them and I said, look, guys, we don't have much money, but you don't have much money, so I'm going to pay you something if you're going to help us to build this like fantastic movie. So they helped us. We pay them when it was a great success and a win win situation for everybody. This is so mark and I talked about this all the time. It just goes to show mark how important a great trailer is. I tell you what, yeah, maybe one day we'll have one, but I think that's a great idea. What a terrific creative way. I bet the VC's don't see a ton of that. I guess they're going to now, but I think that was a very creative and innovative way to do that. That was genius. So you get your VC funding and you guys have done several rounds. You've been actually very successful and raising subsequent rounds and you really do have a WHO's who of investors. You know, certainly top tier firms like Charles River that. That's impressive, super impressive. But now it's time to grow the company. We need to take it beyond the idea and prototype phase. How do we grow a company and scale it up? You guys now have offices, as you heard todd mentioned, all over the world. How do you actually scale up a company but still retain that culture, that flavor, that uniqueness? How do you do that? Yeah, so this is a fascinating topic that that I lack a lot because usually when I'm talking about it it's I'm saying that, look, it's very easy to keep the culture. When you have fifty people. The culture is basically you and your founder. If somebody is doing something wrong, it's like these fifty people will just tell him or hair that they did something wrong and and you move on and you keep the DNA and the only thing that you really needs to do is to make sure that you hire the right people. But basically you have the luxury to to interview each and every went one of the people that joining the company. If the company is successful and start, you starting to hire in a rapid cadence, like we did. If you think about it, we moved from I think it was fifty people to almost five hundred people in a very short manner of time. It was like three years. So it's rapid cadence of hiring people. So in this process, what we realize that, in order to keep the culture and the DNA of the company, what we needed to do is actually to codify the values of the company and to codify the mission and the vision of the company. So it's like, basically, I said, kind of what is the vision of the company, that we want to protect people in information in the new and open connected world. Then the mission was to reverse the adversary advantage by empowering people with ingenuity and technology and the defenders. For us, this is kind of the people that we are empowering. But then it's countdown to to the values, and I believe that the company that don't have kind of a very clear, concrete set of values, it's losing the COMPOS and can lose the DNA of the company. So we were sitting together with our employees and we kind of codified the five key values of the company and and basically, right now we're leaving those values every day. And this is not just being a security company, because this is an obvious one. Of course we're a security company.

It's more about, you know, daring, every evolving and never give up and you be. You did another value that. So some those, those are your five values. Never giving up. What did you say? You be. You. Yeah, it's basically it's daring to be daring, every evolving, never give up, you bu win as one, and I can extend kind of each and every one of them and why they are. Are Very unique as a single value, but the more powerful if you think about it as a combined values that that dictate the DNA and the behavior of every person in the company, a unique one that you mentioned was you beu. We don't you know because we don't have, you know, a long format here. Can you just double click on that one? You be you. Absolutely so many people in the industry is talking about diversity, and when they're talking about diversity it's a very narrow definition. Usually the conversation immediately goes to amount of men and women do that you have in the company. Then maybe about color, maybe about religious but that's it. From the get go we knew that we want to build a big, international, Global Company. So instead of trying to define what is the right ratio, we basically started to find kind of all the different spectrum of differences that we want to achieve in the company. And then we realize that instead of defining these, let's just say something simple. You be you, meaning that bring the best of you to the company. We are not going to judge you of anything. We're going to adjust you on one thing, and this is meritocracy, meaning if you are the best of what you're doing, we're going to hire you and you're gonna stay with US forever, and we do not care, you know, if it's a color or religious or anything on the spectrum. We just don't care and, on the opposite, what it generated. It generated a very strong message to the market that we do care and we do want everybody and we're welcoming everybody. And Right now, if you look at the number, you know, the percentage of men and women in the company at the beginning we started with fifty even in engineering, in every aspect of the business. That's pretty that. That's definitely not a market trend. That's incredibly yeah, for sure. So we are a big relievers and you know, I think that we celebrate it every day in the company. Yeah, that's a big that does cut through a lot of you know, problems. I think that's that's amazing. You be you. That's a first. Hey, I did want to ask you a little bit about your competition. You know where I'm sitting right now. I can look out my window and I can see the silence building. Now they're their blackberry silence and not far from here is crowd strike. Do you track those guys? Do you look here right in your left and track those guys? And you know, how do you? How do you focus on differentiation in this market? Absolutely so we track everybody, everybody, and I'm saying everybody because there is the old guard, there is the new guard, so it's like we really truck everybody, because I don't view cyberism as an endpoint company. We basically build a big data analytic company that can find hackers and push them out and prevent them from hacking you. We have a saying in the company let's protect it all, and this is where we're going. When I view the company the competition, I see that many of them sometimes a very narrow vision of what they're trying to achieve, and it's a shame because I believe that there is a real opportunity right now to transform and change the way that we're thinking about security, because in the past it was it security and right now it's morph a change to...

...be a cyber security and in cyber security we have an adversary that is evolving every day, and this is part of the reason that part of the core valus of cyberism is ever evolving, because, when we think about it, hackers are evolving every day, so we have to evolve every day. So we are a big believer that the company that will be able to win it all is the one that can keep a evolving every day and introducing a new capability and a new way to protect against those hackers. So it's not just about this feature of that feature, it's about the one that's evolving very fast. So when I'm reviewing the competition, I'm asking myself not who is has what feature. I'm really asking myself it's like who is evolving and the one that was just acquired? Usually they are not evolving game. HMM. Well, you bring up an interesting point. In many respects, your your competition, isn't necessarily other security companies. For the most part it's hackers. Is your competition. Right, they're the opposition. That's, if you will, trying to get in and and and your job is to keep them, keep them out or, if they are in, kick them out. Absolutely. When people ask me, it's like, what is the road map? What is the vision of the product that you're going to build, and I'm saying it's a look, it's not my product management team. Are the one that dictating the future. Is the hackers. They are the one that dictating the future and we need two, three step ahead of them. So we coined a term. I coined it in two thousand and twelve, and I call it the three pill e that start with the smolly, that this is the endpoint that evolved to immediately, that this is the enterprise that eventually evolved to the big e. This is the everything, and I believe that our dog is to protect it all. So it's to protect the bee, the everything. So this is going, where we're going, this is how we have to evolve as a company. That's Fassening, that's I think that's a very good clear vision to set and I think that kind of clarity in many mid or, as you mentioned, large companies really gets diluted. So it'll be fun watching you move, you know, as on your journey from that middle e to the big E. I think that's going to be fun to watch. Hey, is there anything else that you want to dig into the we haven't that we haven't already kicked around? Yeah, I think that there is one thing that specifically for a new entrepreneurs people will tell them that they can do it and people will tell them that they're going to fail, and they need to know that that's probably true. They're going to fail, but it's not how they're failing is how fast they are evolving and back on their feet and keep fighting and the one that knows how to, you know, fail, evolve and get back and keep evolving. This is the one that basically will be able to win. And this is, you know, p part of our mantra here is the never give up and ever evolving. This is something that we're doing every day, every day. Well, you know what, that is great advice. We are and actually everything you talked about today with market myself is just been, just been amazing. We can't thank you enough for for taking some time out and chatting with us and chatting with our our listeners. Thanks again, thanks so much for being on the show. Absolutely it's my pleasure if it's can contribute to, you know, any new entrepreneur that exists. Elder, that's my pleasure and this is my obligation. That's perfect and certainly, certainly I think there's people out there listening to this podcast right now that those are welcome words. So thank you for spending time with us. This has been absolutely fascinating. I have I've got to like a whole page of notes of stuff I got to go check out. So thank you so much. Thank you. Wow, mark, what a fascinating guest we are. That was great. He was just incredible. But he...

...mentioned stucks net and he and he went into it a little bit. Unfortunately for me, you know the marketing guy. That's the first time I had I had heard that and I know it did peaks some interest in you. What was that whole story about? Well, it's a very interesting story. Around two thousand and ten there was actually a cyber attack on an uranium and Uranian uranium. Boy, that's hard to say. Enrichmond planned via cyber attack. There's some fascinating books written on this edge of the seat, little bit of James Bond, little bit of Programmer Geek, but one of them is countdown to zero day. If you get an opportunity to our listeners out there, I recommend a listening to that. An amazing story, truly amazing story. I know that at the time when we first started hearing about this, digging into it, I just remember thinking that's a thing that really happened. So if you get an opportunity, this is not my commercial plug for someone's book, but they do a much better run down of the story. And to have you know, LEE OUR DIV not only on our show awesome, amazing, but to have him kind of mention a little bit. Certainly an interesting tidbit. Okay, so, wait a minute, so it does sound James Bondy, so I'm looking so I just added it to my audible list. And these guys tried to to sabotage a nuclear reactor and create a Megatun bomb. This does not sound like like real world here. Well, well, they didn't try to create a bomb, they tried to prevent someone from creating a bomb, I'll put it that way. But yeah, obviously a lot of this is still shrouded in secrecy and everyone denies what happened and so forth. But that with, without being a spoiler, let's just say that Stucknett leaked out into the public and that's where companies like semantic and Siemens got involved and started unpacking the payload and where the first kind of the first weaponized cyber malware was exposed, I think, to the public. Those those kind of a president case. But anyway, if you're a cyber guy, if you're a security guy, you already probably know a lot about it. If this sounds a drinking to you, I can just recommend go out there check it out. There's some great books on it why they have made a movie on this? I don't know, but it's like you did make a movie as part of his visa. That's that's absolutely right. Yeah, well, now I am so curious to get my hands on that one minute movie by find out what it was all about. I could be really awesome. Yeah, that would be okay, man. Well, listen, we will. We will check you out on the flip side for for our next episode. Mark have a have a great rest of the day, man. Yeah, you got it. Stay safe. Trace three is hyper focused on helping it leaders deliver business outcomes by providing a wide variety of data center solutions and consulting services. If you're looking for emerging technology to solve tried and true business problems, trace three is here to help. We believe all possibilities live in technology. You can learn more at trace threecom podcast. That's trace, the number threecom podcast. You've been listening to the founder formula, the podcast for all things start up, from Silicon Valley to innovators across the country. If you want to know what it takes to lead tomorrow's tech companies, subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time,.

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