The Founder Formula
The Founder Formula

Episode 24 · 1 year ago

Renen Hallak, Co-founder VAST Data - Making Company Culture a Priority


On this week’s episode of The Founder Formula, we talk with Renen Hallak, Founder and CEO of VAST Data. In 2019, he was honored for entrepreneurship by Goldman Sachs at their annual Innovator Summit. His company also recently made the news by raising $100M in Series C Funding — so it’s safe to say that Renen knows a thing or two about being a successful founder.

Our conversation was incredible, and we were fortunate that Renen was so generous with his time. We discussed, among other things:

The key differences between the hardware and software company and how those experiences differ greatly.

The journey to four successful fundraising cycles and why the most recent $100M cycle was so unique.

The complex decisions that go into selecting a board of directors for your company.

Making the company culture a foundation from day 1.

Listen to this and all of The Founder Formula episodes at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

Having this war chest of a hundred and forty million dollars in the bank shows them that we're here to stay, and the high valuation, the one point two billion dollar, means that there aren't that many companies that are able to acquire US anymore. The founder Formula Brings you in behind the curtains and inside the minds of today's brave executives at the most future leaning startups. Each interview will feature a transformative leader who's behind the wheel at a fast paced and innovative tech firm. They'll give you an insiders look at how companies are envisioned, created and scaled. We hope you're ready. Let's get into the show. Okay, everybody, welcome back to the show. We are super thrilled to be here. We've got another great episode of the Founder Formula For you, Episode Twenty Four. We've been doing this for twenty four episodes. My name is Hoggalina, and with me is Tony Olzach. He's the chief technical officer here at trace three. Tony, how's it going? It's out happy Freddy. Hey Man. So perhaps you'd like to share with the audience what's going on in your Home Office this week. Apparently there's it's weird stuff going on. Yeah, that's what you want to talk about? Yeah, so interesting scenario. My wife here, who used to be a dog person, after getting her first decided to get two more, you know. So I've got three cats, which put you in an interesting scenario because when you tell people about it, you almost don't want to say the number because then you're that person, you're the cat people. And she left town and normally she and the kids be pouring attention ont of the cats. So not big it beg of an issue. But they're so lonely that they will not leave you alone. And I'm sitting here in meetings or these recordings and I've got cats crawling all over me, crawling on the chair, on my desk, all over the mics, and I even on video calls and people are like, is that a cat? What's going on? You know, it's weird. Is that so? We we're all on zoom and we're all having these issues and I will tell you, every now and then a pet will be involved. It's just it's just the world we live in now. So there's this thing where it's like one cat is kind of acceptable, but in your case there's a second and potential third cat, and I agree. That's that's when you enter the the weird cat person category. It's you know, they get jealous, is what it is. And so, you know, the one hops up on the desk and the n'sier like hey, hey, buddy, what's the story? Where's where's our best time? We want to be up there too. Yeah, and there it definitely is a cat threshold that is healthy, where you can come up conversation like one cat, no problem. Two cats, yeah, you don't want the one cats be lonely. Three cats, like, is there something you want to tell us about? Was The story there? Because even even that's weird. You know. It's just like why would you throw a third cat into the mix? You have to. They can play with each other. And then once you have three, it's like the doors wide open. There's nothing to stop you from getting four, five, six, and suddenly you're that old creepy grandma on the simpsons, you know. Yeah, it's an army of cats everywhere, just amazing. The deal with the crazy thing with your cats is one of them literally likes to like play with the cords behind your computer and your mic and your video camera and all that stuff, but that's when I'm gathering as as we've been on these calls together. Yeah, Mikes are cutting out. You know, it's, I think, everybody. So you Sall the technology difficulties these days with the different collaboration platforms, so that it's still understandable. I don't necessarily read them. Man, about the three cats thing, so thanks for bringing them up on the product of the podcasts you but yeah, that's what's going...

...on. So next time I cut out, just imagine the three cat party that's happening over at my house. Oh my gosh, you're safe. Everyone's going to understand. And, by the way, when your wife gets back, you know you'll be back to zero cats involved in your in your conferences. Yeah, that's the key to success. You Nice less and less. Of course you went to California to get some additional cats. Oh, she comes back with more. It's done, which just will have to buy like a second house so that like the cats of their own place. That's all right, man. You're ready to get to our our guests. Let's do it. I'm excited. Cool, okay, our guests is the founder and CEO of vast data a New York based Technology Company that specializes in bringing storage on demand to enterprise companies. In two thousand and nineteen he was honored for Entrepreneurship by Goldman Sachs at their annual innovator summit. Recently, is company made some news by raising one hundred million dollars in series funding. Please, welcome to the show, Renn and Halleck. Welcome running. Thank you to pleasure to be here. Yeah, really excited to have you. It's awesome you can make some time for us to day. Hey, Rennie's is we kick this thing off. For those who don't know anything about vasts, if you could spend a little bit of time telling us about vast data and why you started it, of course. So vast is a five year old start up, or not really a start up anymore. We're in the infrastructure space. Specifically, we're starting from storage and our history is with the different founding members of the team. We all come from different companies and we all have our different experiences and we came together to build something new. To Day, the team is just under two hundred people, split between Israel, or our rb center is, and the US, where everything else is, or go to market is out of New York City. That's where I am right now, and we have operations in support in the bay area. What we were built to do is develop new infrastructure for a new generation of applications. Our backgrounds are from different types of storage systems, all flash storage systems, and when we started we interviewed a lot of customers, or potential customers at the time, and we ask them, what is it that you're missing that nobody can provide today? What are your biggest pain points that you see right now, and what will you see in three to five years, do you think? And all of them said pretty much the same thing. They said the current storage systems and current infrastructures were okay for the applications they have now, for their legacy application, but as more and more analytics based applications become available and what today is known as ai and machine learning and deep learning, the existing infrastructure doesn't hold anymore. These new applications require fast access, not just to a little bit of your data at the tip of this pyramid where you have many tiers of slower storage underneath. They require fast access to the entirety of the data set in order to be successful, and so a new paradigm is required to allow access to all of this information, and that's what we've built. We were fortunate to start at a time where we could see into the future a little bit. We were talking to the different hardware vendors, like Intel and Melanox, and they were showing us in their road maps how things like obtain memory will be available and va the other fabrics, and we immediately thought, how can we architect a new type of system based on these new hardware technologies that will solve these big problems that the customers are and that's what we did. You mentioned getting feedback from customers. Basically, Hey, what... you want us to build and if we build it, will you buy it? A lot of people are not going to get that type of access to their target customers. Was it hard for you to get that access? How did you get it? The first few are hard, and the way I got it was I reached out to everybody that I knew on the go to market side. My background is in engineering and I reached out to the people that I work within the past, salespeople, marketing people, and ask them for introductions to customers who they thought were forward thinking and those first few are hard to accumulate. But then once I started talking to a few, I always ended with who else do you think I should talk to? And every single one of them had between two and five friends or colleagues or people that they respected that they said I should talk to, and so it grew from there in a very organic way. Yeah, it's great, that's that's smart. What you know? What one of the key things I think would be interesting is, you know, since you're in the hardware space, which obviously does require software play, you talking about how you got access to road maps and and we're looking at the future juicers, some client conversations. How far out do you need to be with the hardware play start up like that to take the market? Is that differ greatly from us? Sure, software company or love to hear a little bit more about that. Yeah, so everything that we develop is software, all of our IP is software. In fact, if you went to our Tel Aviv office or we have little more than a hundred developers right now, ninety eight ninety nine of them will be software developers and we have one or two hardware people. What we do is we try to leverage new hardware technologies and new hardware pieces in a way that couldn't be done before, and so we built the new software architecture on top of these pieces and we built new algorithms and meditative structures that weren't possible before. They weren't possible on ram or on Flash, but they are possible on opting this new architecture was not possible before envy MEO or fabrics was available, and so we try to leverage the new hardware pieces and build a system on top. I'm a big believer that innovation doesn't happen by having the smart person think for a very long time about how to solve a problem. It comes from the rules of the game being changed, in the constraints being changed, and trying to solve a problem that nobody else tried before or in a way that couldn't be done before because the underlying constraints were different. That's great, that's great running. Hey, let's rewind the clock a little bit. Let's let's take our listeners back to your early beginnings. Can you tell us a little bit about what in your background made you think you could start a successful company and what type of environment kind of encourage that. Well, I grew up in Israel, which some people call the startup nation. You find two people in Israel, you have three companies in between them. I never thought that it could be successful. But I was also from a personality perspective. I think I'm one that doesn't take direction very easily and so I'm a little bit hard to manage and I don't fit in very well in large organization. So ever since I started, basically ever since I was discharged from the military, and Israel everyone does a few years of military service after high school, I looked for small places, and the smaller the better and the earlier the better, because I always liked to build something from nothing and those types of...

...things attracted me. And I think I'm one of those people that's a bit of an odd duct, that is very well suited for the startup life and wouldn't have been able to succeed in a large corporation. In fact, my previous job was at EMC. After an acquisition. They acquired our company extreme I oh, and so long as they kept it separate, as separate entity and gave us autonomy to do our own thing, it was okay. But once the integration into the big corporation started, I felt that I needed something smaller, awesome running. When you finally decided to form vast data, how did you go about forming your founding team? You mentioned earlier that you all knew each other. Was it just through previous work experience? It would love to hear about how that experience went down. Yeah, so when I started it was just me, unfortunately. I don't recommend that. I think a founding team is very important. And I did start. Somebody gave me the advice that it takes about six months to raise money, and so I said, I'm not exactly sure what I'm building yet, I don't know who I'm going to build it with, but if it takes six months to raise money, I'd better start now because I don't want to waste any time. And a few weeks into it I found that it didn't take six months, two or three weeks, and so I was with quite a bit of money in the bank account, without any cofounders and without a very clear idea of what it is that we're going to do. And so I took that first almost year. I started in the beginning of two thousand and sixteen and up until the very end of two thousand and sixteen, we didn't really start development work. It was more research. It was, as I said, talking to customers. It was looking for those co founders that will join me in building this company, and the first one I knew I needed was someone on the business side because, as I said, I came from engineering, I knew very little about business. So I needed someone that could be a one man go to market army, and that was Jeff Dnworth, who I was introduced to through a mutual acquaintance. And when I met Jeff I knew immediately that he's the right guy. It took me a while to convince can be joint, but once he did, it was validated that was the right choice. The other thing I knew, and I was living back in Israel at the time, is that I need to relocate to the US because I've seen so many Israeli startups build the most amazing technology but then not find a market for it, and I knew that that was a trap I did not want us to fall into and that being close to the market, close to the customers, is the best way to offset that. And so I needed a very strong engineering leader to build the RD team and enable me to move out here, and that was Shahar, who leads our engineering team, our VP of engineering, the other few people that I hired at the very beginning. We're all very strong architects and developers, the type that can do anything. They are still the pillars that vast data is built on top of today and I can't imagine the company without them. You mentioned spending the first six months raising money. You know, just just looking at your rounds, you you were able to secure one thousand, five hundred and twenty five and then forty. Can you tell us about raising this recent one hundred million in did you have to pitch all four times? In which pitch was the hardest? Yeah, I'm not very good at pitching. In fact, I find that when I come to an investor and I'm asking them to invest, it rarely ends well.

It needs to happen the other way around, and so this I found out accidentally, actually the very, very beginning. I wasn't yet sure that I was ready to start the company and I had investors approach me, investors at previously invested in extreme io, as an example, and other companies, and ask what is it that I'm working on because they heard that I left my previous job and I really left to spend time with family, but the fact that they started approaching me and I quickly realized that the more I tell them I'm not really working on anything yet, the more interested they got. And it's this reverse psychology that many times works better than going out and pitching and looking for money. And then every round that we had was very similar. It was always interested. Came in in bound from new investors that heard about company, heard about a customer that we're at or some success that we've had, and it was always from a point of strength, from a point of we don't need this investment. That allowed us to get better terms and that allowed us to ultimately grow in the way that we did. This last one, specifically the hundred million dollars. We weren't even at a point where we started using the money from the previous round and the main reason that we raised this big round is to enable two things with customers. The first is we saw customers are starting to make bigger and bigger investments with us. When we started there were one million dollar deals, two million dollar deals. More recently we see six and seven and eight million dollar deals being closed, and we saw that the biggest obstacle for those bigger deals to close is the confidence that the customers have in the company, and they needed to have confidence that, a, we were here to stay and that we will support them forever and be that we weren't about to be acquired by someone else who would take the company in a different direction. And I think this round achieved both of those objectives, because having this war chest of a hundred and forty million dollars in the bank shows them that we're here to stay, and the high valuation, the one point two billion dollar, means that there aren't that many companies that are able to acquire us anymore, and so we were able to knock those two out and that led the way, or paved the way, to US having that confidence in closing larger and larger deals. Yeah, that's that's really smart. You know, we get us all the time during the about eation process on will. How confident are youse these guys can be arounds. I think we can appease for technology that gets abandoned or WHO's acquiring these guys. And how do I feel about who's going to acquire them? So that's really smart about the timing and and what you guys say with that around. Now, does that come with any additional pressure? So you raise a round of them that magnitude, how does your situation change in the way that you think about the business or just or any of the pressures that are brought to the situation? I try to ignore external pressures. I think we put enough pressure on ourselves to succeed and we've been given this opportunity, not just from a funding perspective, but it really feels like the stars are aligned both from field perspective and customer base, and we're solving a problem that is real, that customers really do need to solve, and we're not seeing as much competition as maybe we should have been, and so all of these stars are aligning in a way that are allowing us to grow very quickly and to be very successful and that, I think, in and of itself, creates the pressure of we don't want to screw it up. Any external pressure on top of...

...that doesn't really add much and I think the right thing is to say calm and calculated and make decisions based on actual information and data and try and grow in the best way possible. Growing too fast is also sometimes problematic, and so external pressures you just need to be ignored. RN and we we ask a lot about founders choosing their founding team and you shared you shared that story with us. What we haven't asked about is selecting a board. You Have Tom Mendoza on your board and he's a good friend of trace three. He's key noted many of our conferences and he's been a lifetime achievement winner for us. Are you involved in choosing the board, or is it you know, the people who've made the investment, like like norwest and Goldman, sacks and next forty seven? Do they secure your board members? So the original board members in the company are the people who made the investments, and I think the most important thing is to choose them wisely, because they are ultimately your partners and if you don't get along with them or if you chose wrong, there's not much you can do about that. You can always fire and employee. That that I think you should do that often, but you can't fire a board member or an investor, and so choosing the right investors in the early days is key to having success and I think on that front, we've done very, very well. I always looked at the person before I looked at the brand, and if you choose the right people, than everything else takes care of itself. What happened more recently is we suddenly realize that we are a billion dollar company and none of us have done this before. We've never built ten billion dollar company before, and we thought that it is a good time to go out and look for people who did in order for them to guide us on this journey, especially to point out obstacles and road blocks and make sure we don't make the same mistakes that they made when they built very successful companies. And so that caused me to go out and look for those types of people, and the first person that I found that I really, really liked and that has that record is Tom and doze, and so that was our decision. It was myself and Mike waying, our president, who approached him and ultimately convinced him to join. We're very, very lucky to have him on board and going forward we're looking for more people of that hilt. Tom Obviously has to go to market experience. He's built one of the best companies in the world from a sales perspective, and so I think we need others who were just as successful but bring other are things to the table. Maybe someone from the finance perspective or someone from the marketing perspective or a very, very good CEO that can guide me into building this company. So that's what we're looking for as we mature and as the board require is required to mature with us. Yeah, it's great to hear. I mean it sounds like he has the very purposeful plan of how you're trying to build that out, and one of the things are always curious about is, you know, what point does company culture come into play and how purposeful have you guys been about it? And then how do your people play a role into that? Think culture comes into play on the first day. Company's Culture, I think, is similar to a person's personality, and every person has a personality and every company has a culture. I think the way to build the...

...right culture is by a combination of bringing on the right people, the people that you like to work with and the people that share the same values as you do, but also people would diverse experiences. The more experience you have around the table, the better decisions will be made and the second piece, I think, is by leading by example, and people will look at you and we'll look at what you do and they will imitate that. And if you treat the company as if it's your own, they will treat the company as if it's their own. And if you treat company money is if it's your own money, they will do the same. If you take big, audacious goals and try to reach them, they will know that that's something that's not just allowed but expected. And if they see you fail and they see you come back up and try again, then they'll know that failure is also okay so long as you learn from it. And so I think a lot of example and choosing the right people is what builds the right culture. And as the company grows it becomes more and more important because when your ten people in the same room, you're with each other all day long and it's easy. It just it's impageous. But when you get to two hundred people and now we're starting to think about five hundred people, how do we make sure that that culture remains and dissipates into new recruits? That's something that I think you need to start working on more than we did in the beginning. It's not only companies aren't only growing, but under covid you know, everyone's separated. It's almost like it's an assault on on culture in some ways, because you know those groups of people that used to hang around with and solve problems with are all in despared places. And so have you seen some additional complexity around culture with the virus? Definitely. I can say that we kept all of our offices open through throughout the entire thing. We weren't all able to get to our offices at any given point in time, but whenever it was possible, we kept that option for people who wanted that and who needed that, and so every person in the company made that decision for themselves and we obviously relied more on technology, a lot more zoom, a lot more slack. It's not the same as facetoface and it's not the same type of interaction, but it's keeping us at least until until the day where we can all get back together again. I hope that day is is not far away. I can't wait. Rented real quick. You you mentioned at the beginning that you went out to customers and ask for their advice on what to build. Have you had an opportunity to circle back around and say hey, we built it, you bought it, you're using it, what do you think of it? Have you had any gratifying moments from from these customers that you originally surveyed? Yes, every step of the way. When we first came to those customers with a powerpoint and asked questions and they said yeah, we don't like that idea, we don't like that story, we're not really going to buy that. We went back afterwards when we fixed our story, and we asked them what about this and what about this, until they said yes, yes, yes, if you build that, we're going to buy it. And then in some way we told a story that was too good and we weren't sure how to build it, and so it took us a couple years. Who actually build something that we thought was close to the story that we've told. And I I am a little bit paranoid and I felt that when we actually come to them with an Alpha product, they'll be disappointed because it's not as good as the powerpoint. And so when we finally came to the first few Alphas, I was very fearful of that. And when they came back and said this is just what you described. I felt okay, we did something good, and then I of course went back to being paranoid and...

I said, well, nice words are cheap. They don't need to pay for it, they're just testing it. Let's see if someone actually buys. And then a few months later, when it was gay, all of them wanted to buy and I said that's encouraging. But then I convinced myself that we're very good salespeople and they just bought because we convinced them, but I wasn't sure that the product is actually as good as you really are paranoid. The more I hear this. Pay Am I am. But the gratifying moment was when the first customer decided to buy again, and it was about six months after the first purchase and I remember getting that email saying that they want to expand their system significantly and I remember talking to them when they purchased originally and they said they're buying cycle is about every three years and so we should expect that cadence. And six months afterwards they come back and say we want to buy a system that's five times bigger. I immediately hopped in my car and drove down to talk to them to see what's going on. They make a mistake, and what they told me was ever since they deployed vast they never had a single complaint about it. And these are storage experts. They have all of the different storage systems on the floor and they said they've never had a storage system that first six months did not cause any complaints and that was very, very gratifying. And then I asked them, well, why are you buying more? And they said everybody that complains on every one of our other systems, we just move that workload onto vast and we stopped hearing from them well, and so we made a conceded decision to stop buying everything else and just buy more vast. And that was when I knew that we built something really, really good for the customer and some and build what we intended to build. That's a moment that I remember. That's fantastic. You know, in that story you were talking about how they were describing some of the competitive solutions that were out there as well. In do you guys actually track competitor feedback and what's going on in the rest of the competition, or you basically just laser focused on improving what you have and what the class are telling you. I don't personally. There are people in the company that know what's happening with competition. Personally, I think it's a distraction. I don't like to look to the sides. I like to look at first principles, what is possible, and then how far are we from the optimal? And that's how I measure myself and that's how I measured the team. I want US always to be as close as possible to the optimal. Never look to the sides because I find that subconsciously, if if you start looking at your competition, you'll end up building a product that's similar to what they have and and if you don't, then you may maybe off on a tangent, but you also maybe ten times better or a hundred times better without noticing. So I don't like to look at the competition. I'm sorry, Grannan and Tony, after we weren't really really quick to that previous story that you told about, you know, being paranoid, and it's like I could imagine somebody standing next to renting and they've got like a bottle of champagne and they're trying to they're ready to pop the cork and they're and he's like, all right, we sold it, and they're like, yes, they bought it. Can Be Popcorn? No, not yet. Wait a second. Okay, they bought more. COULD WE POPCORN? No, I have to find out why they bought more. You know, it's like the events team over there, right, you know, the party room has all the streamers and balloons, but but not really willing to pop the corks just yet. So I'm learning. was there a moment where you're like yes, we got it now? Yet only the paranoid survived time. I can tell you after our last round, when we raised a hundred million dollars and it was in the middle of the pandemic and it was very stressful. It was not clear that the investors...

...will follow through with what we agreed to because the world was changing and they had every right to change the terms or to back out. And after that round I remember a few of US went down to a bar and somebody asked me, is it time to celebrate yet? I said we're just getting started. So I think. I think we have a lot to do and I'm always maybe too much looking at what could go wrong and how do we protect ourselves? And I don't think it's time for celebration yet, but you guys must be on a great track because I know in the middle of everything that's going on, all the vc community is that the investments won't necessarily slow down, but they're they're going to be doubling down on the ones they think have tremendous upset. So the fact that you guys pulled that off in the middle of all of this speaks volumes. I think about your future trerectory in the belief that people have in you. We put a very aggressive plan in place in order to warrant that funding round and again the pandemic itid and it was hard to know if we'll meet it, but fortunately we have. We exceeded our goals every quarter of this year. We are on track to exceed a hundred million and dollar run rate this year. It's a second year that we've been selling and with a very small team. We have less than ten people, ten salespeople, in the field right now, and so I think we're definitely in going in the right direction and we're now doubling down and hitting the gas and we're growing in order to accommodate the growth that we expect of ourselves next year. So it's a very it's a very exciting time. Okay, so you this is an exciting time and we're really excited for you, knowing that you kind of had this founder mentality, and I'm this, this is really tough, always a tough question to answer, but is this. It is vast data. The company building a lifestyle company for the long haul. Do you have an exit plan? Have your investors put an exit plan on you? No? Well, no to the second two questions. I don't have an exit plan and the investors have not discussed this with me. I don't believe that you can build a company with an exit plan in mind. Whatever happens, whether it's an IPO or an acquisition or anything else, you need to build the company with the long term in mind and that gives you options. You never want to be in a situation where you're at the mercy of an acquirer, and so my belief is we're building it for the long term. We're going to take over the world and that's that's the mindset that you need when building a company. I'll also say that being acquired isn't the most fun thing in the world in many in many senses it's the beginning of the end and you know that people are going to start leaving soon. You know that innovation is not going to keep accelerating at the pace that it was before, and so the longer we can keep this company independent, I think the better it is for us, the better it is for our customers, the better it is for our investors because it'll keep growing in value and they will gain the benefits of that and running. Really appreciate the time. Want to be respectful for your time and it's will getting a little bit of late where you are at versus the West Coast, you know, as we close us out, is there anything else that we didn't ask you that you'd love to share? I want to call out to trace three for being a great partner and for being an extension of our sales team. We could not have done any of what we did without the support of the channel community. Thank you. You're welcome. With that, I'm going to put my stileman hat on, if you don't mind running, and when it does become time to...

...celebrate can tony and I be there. That's you can yes, I'll let you ring the bell. Tod only rings cow bell, so that all all right, and this has been great. Man, thanks so much for hanging out with Tony and myself. It's been a blast. I enjoyed it. Thank you. Yeah, so I think, todd, what I learned today was the key to success is you have a successful exit, spend time with your family and you do nothing and when people ask you what you're doing, you tell them that you're doing nothing, and when investors say what you doing, you tell them that you're doing nothing. That's the key to success. That's how you get that initial interest. If you seen that movie for Getting Sarah Marshall? Yes, no, the one with the puppets, their puppets and forgetting Sarah Marshall. Yeah, I just ruined your joke. Yeah, that's one where. That's the one where he wants to do a puppet show with vampires. Oh, yes, yes, you're your toy, right's, I forgot about that part that. It's like his drink come true. But it's like the surf scene where it's a surf instructor scene with Paul Rudd and he's like do less, no, no, do less, and then he's like I'm doing absolutely nothing's like do less. I could have kept thinking about that and know he hadn't. He hasn't figured out that's true. Oh my gosh, you know what, are you doing? Nothing? You have any plans and doing anything? No, not at all. Give me money. I what if we gave you money, could you do something? The mistique is just too much to handle. That's a great trick. It works for him. Boy, hundred eighty million dollars raised. That's that's nuddy. Yeah, that's pretty incredible if those guys are on a great trajectory, if you've paid attention to what's been going on with them. But lots of really interesting conversations out in the field. Trace three field teams? Yeah, no, root for them for sure. Trace three is hyper focused on helping it leaders deliver business outcomes by providing a wide variety of data center solutions and consulting services. If you're looking for emerging technology to solve tried and true business problems, trace three is here to help. We believe all possibilities live in technology. You can learn more at trace threecom podcast. That's trace the number threecom podcast. You've been listening to the founder Formula The podcast for all things start up, from Silicon Valley to innovators across the country. If you want to know what it takes to lead tomorrow's tech companies, subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time,.

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