The Founder Formula
The Founder Formula

Episode · 3 years ago

Raja Mukerji, Co-founder ExtraHop Networks - The Two Most Important Characteristics for Starting a Company


Today’s guest is Raja Mukerji, Co-Founder and Chief Customer Officer at ExtraHop Networks

There is only one purpose of any company: to provide VALUE to its users. In order to do that, you need a maniacal focus on the customer right from the outset of founding a company. 

In this episode, Raja shares his thoughts on:  

  • Showing up in Gartner’s upper-right hand quadrant. 
  • The 2 most important characteristics you need to start a company. 
  • The biggest myth about startups. 
  • Why it’s important for your investors to appreciate the “Art of the Possible.” 

I think this two characteristics that are very, very important studying a company, and number one is curiosity, and number too his grip. The founder Formula Brings you in behind the curtains and inside the minds of today's brave executives at the most future leaning startups. Each interview will feature a transformative leader who's behind the wheel at a fast paced and innovative tech firm. They'll give you an insiders look at how companies are envisioned, created and scaled. We hope you're ready. Let's get into the show, everybody. Welcome back for another episode. My name is Todd Blen and with me is chief innovation officer, trace three, mark, Campbell, mark, what's up man, Hey, do you believe that we're halfway through our first season already? Can you believe that? No, I can't believe it. I'm super excited, you know, with our wobbly start to where we are now. We have the next six guests all booked and ready to go. So I think we're going to officially go to twelve episodes for season one and I can't believe we're halfway there either. Yeah, it's been you know what it's been like? A podcast founders journey, you know, on on where we've been so far, but super excited, not just about the guests that we've had in so far, but looking ahead at the the lineup we've got coming in. I'm chomping at the bit. These are going to be really fun. Yes, same here, and I think you know, when we finished with episode twelve, the give us a chance to kind of sit back, look at the first, quote unquote, season and then figure out a few things that we can do to, you know, turn the dials on season two. And of course we're still so listening feedback from the listeners. Mark you want to share how listeners can get in touch with us? Yeah, if you've got any comments about the show, drop us a line at innovation at trace threecom. That's TRAC numeral threecom, or feel free to reach out to me on social media.

My twitter handle is hype sniper, hype Sny PR. Hype sniper. Certainly would love to hear from anyone out there and ideas that they have. By the way, I'm sick and tired of hearing, though, that we need a new host on the show. I mean, yeah, I agree, obviously, but you know, we're past that point at this at this juncture, you know mark you are, you are solidified and unless something happens, are you're too ill or somebody kidnaps you, I think we're stuck with you for quite some time. Do you mean it'll like is is in like you know kind of gangster slang? Is being really, really cool. You're referring to Illing, as in, you know, the famous run DMC line, your favorite song be villain. Yeah, no, I got the shirt on right now. People might not be asking us to change our host, but they're probably going to start asking us to make more relevant pop culture reference is. So I think you're safe. Cool. Well, so far, so good then. Hey, everybody, I wanted to pause just for a second to let you all know that we're really excited to announce that this podcast is sponsored by net APP, which is another company that was born out of the Silicon Valley. So they fit right in, and I like to introduce trace three Co founder Brett mcinnis, and he's going to tell us a little bit about what's going on over at net APP. Hey, todd, you know, I think many technology leaders today are thinking. I know AI is a critical part of our future, but how do I ai word I start. Fortunately, net up has taken the first steps with their on TAP AI architecture. Sounds Great. So what's the AI architecture? So the AI architecture is a validated design that includes the world's fastest all flash storage raised from net APP and the world's fastest GPU enabled dgx service from Nvidia, designed to handle the largest, most complex data sets in use today, with the ability to scale as those data sets grow, because today data is the new currency and speed is the new scale and businesses today need to keep up or get left behind. Sounds Great. So where can our listeners hear more about this? For more information, simply go to net apcom Ai. Thanks Brett. Thanks.

Okay, let's get to our guests. We're very fortunate today to be joined by Raja Mukerji. He's the CO founder and chief customer officer extra hop networks and they are an enterprise cyber analytics company headquartered in Seattle, Washington. Well the Raja. Thank you very much, mark. You ready to roll? My Man, I am super ready. This is going to be a really fun one to do. As you guys are probably aware, out and listener land, extra hops kind of a household, name when you get into the network performance side, network monitoring, network tuning, but most recently kind of verging into that security space, extraposly carved a pretty wide swath through the IT industry rush. It just kind of set the context a little bit. Can you tell us a little bit about extra hop, kind of how you started out the problems you guys are solving? Absolutely so. First, informist, as I mentioned. Thank you very much for having me on the podcast. It's a pleasure to engage with you and the dual listeners. So extra hop is a it's a network detection and Response Company, or an Ndall come, that fundamentally focuses on providing visibility into what's actually happening inside an environment from a security perspective. Now, we do believe that, as an organization that network, Informational Network, netwould data is inherently valuable. It's a close to ground truth as you can possibly get. It's not patchy in nature, it's not dependent on getting logs. You don't have to worry about somebody going blind if it if, for example, somebody shops off an agent and it catches absolutely everything. So network information, it's not self reported, it's observed and it's fundamentally complete by nature. It's the closest thing you can possibly get the truth and we believe it is the ultimate source of insight in today's connected enterprise. Now, in terms of how we started the company, well, I'll be clear about this. My Co founder was the one who was really just Jesse...

Watson. He's the person who's really passionate about starting a company. And ultimately, Jesse and I we met at that five networks and we were the CO architects for the Big Eye pey project for at five. So the big eye product line is basically application delivery controllers. They set on the network and they provide optimization of the application. They secure applications, they optimized applications and Jesse and I work there for a number of years together. And fundamentally, Jesse, I'll just come out there and here and say it, Jesse is the smartest, most driven person I've ever met. And we sat, we were at a five, and the interesting thing there was we share this value on we believe in building something of value. We're passionate about about building rather than just academically going and developing technology. We believe in solving real problems, building something using innovative techniques and ultimately we connect and we said, okay, you know what, we're going to do something great together. We're going to go we get to leverage these talents that we built up over the years in building great products and delivering technology to our end user and we're going to build something great. Now here's the interesting thing, though. One thing that many people will do, especially people who are engineers like me, one thing we often the one mistake that many people make in my position is we build technology and they say, you know, you build it and they will come. But Jesse and I we never believed in that. We've always believed in solving real problems and we've always fundamentally believed that the purpose of a company is there's only one purpose of any company. It's to provide value to its users. Now, that doesn't mean I mean it doesn't mean price, innovation or doing something more simply. It means all of these things, and you can turn the down on in the method you choose. For Jesse and I, that value comes from really delivering superior technology to solve problems that are incredibly hard to solve without that level of innovation and so we set out to start a customer first..., founded on the tenets of innovation and mutual respect and as an organization, that's what we focused on since day one and that's that's what we're doing. We are applying technology and a customer first, customer centric philosophy to solve really hard problems and make our customers lights better. It's obviously you guys have seen some success and I think that there's some great seeds of wisdom there when you talk about, you know, the one purpose of a company's deliver value to your customers. That's great. It's been recently validated by Gartner. You Guys Are Upright Two thousand and nineteen magic quadrant for network performance monitoring in Diagnostics and you guys, so guys, have also had some success with Gardner in two thousand and seventeen. There's a lot of people who might be listening who are unsure of how to engage with Gardner or how they end up kind of having success and being in the upper right hand corner. Can you talk a little bit about about that for our listeners Russia? Certainly, I am happy to. So. Here's the interesting thing, right Gottener, of course they run quite a process, and I mean it's very involved, it's very detailed and it takes a significant amount of effort to engage with Gartner on a magical quadrant. It's I mean you go through the surveys, you go through the studies, you go through the analysis and what have you, but ultimately there's one thing that gotten a cares about more than anything else and that is what customers tell them. And ultimately any vendor can say anything they want and they've heard it all before. I mean we we know how much noise there is and just about in every end of prizet segment of the market. And with Gartner, really what matters is what they hearing from people who are using the technology, from customers when they call in, when they take inquiries, when they get references. That's really what removes the needle more than anything else with a gardener now in a day. Addition to this, of course, you've got to you've got to be crisp, you've got to be able to articulately do your differentiation appropriately, and one reason that's so important is, of course, because we've gotten o what they generally do is they have their analysts, these on spring chickens we're talking about. These are people who have been in...

...the industry, that people who understand the space. More often than not they have worked for other vendors as well, so they have a deep understanding and knowledge as to how this technology should work and how it does work. So in terms of the most important thing is really being to cleatic it differentiation and showing why it matters. It's not simply talking about, Oh, I've got better algorithms on the back end, will my my machine and learning is better than somebody else's. That that is of limited value to God, and what really matters is that the outcome that you can deliver to your customers and how well you do it. Yeah, and certainly you guys have, not just recently, but but for a considerable amount of times since founding extra hop back in two thousand and seven. You guys are finalists for instant young entrepreneur of the year. You and Jesse really have kind of driven each other into this space. But tell me a little bit about the conversations you guys had, maybe at f five or maybe even opportunities before that. Were you guys are kind of sitting down and saying, Hey, let's go out. Let's start this. You mentioned Jesse was kind of a driver behind that, but what made you look in the mirror and kind of say, you know what, I think we can pull this off. I think we got the pieces of the puzzle here. Well, firstly, I'll double down on Jesse really driving this moment. Anybody else and I'll tell you one. He's very convincing. But ultimately, Jesse and I, we will all in at F five. I mean that's that's the way we are, where we are monomoniacal, and what we do. We focus on the task at hand, and so there was not a question, there was never a question of us, you know, moonlighting or doing something on the side. We're all in there, just as we're all in that excrap. This is this is what we do. But ultimately, I think this two characteristics that are very, very important starting a company, and number one is curiosity and number two is grip. Now let's stop the curiosity with Jesse and I mean the fact of the matter is we both knew that we could do something more. I mean five was a great company. Is a great company. We are having a lot of fun over there, but there was so much there was so much more that we...

...felt we could expose ourselves to. I mean, I'll be blunt. I mean before starting x carp this was twelve and a half years back, I'd never looked at the sales complan before, I mean, and they never had. I was involved in the technology. I was involved in making sure our customers that have wonderful experience, but they were this. There was this vast spectrum of things that I knew I could learn, and slowly. I mean it's not enough just to go and dabble. You've got to have the grip to see it through. I mean, I think one thing that we see in the market so much is that everybody celebrates the people who started company. But you know what, starting is in the hard part. Yeah, sure, you have to close your eyes and jump off that diving board or jump up the end of the cliff. Starting is not the hard part and you know, for that matter, finishing isn't always the hard part either. I mean, when you finish something it's always romanticized if there's the outcome. You know, we worked for twelve years for an overnight success or what have you. But the indeed the tricky part, it's the middle it's that messy middle. It's the ups, it's the downs, it's being able to stay constant. It's like of the fact that everything's falling down around you. I mean that's the most important and pot so that curiosity and grip. These are the two attributes that Jesse and I really feel that we have. That drove us, that drove us every day. I mean all the other attributes of course, but these are the two main things. And we looked at each other and we knew that. We knew that we could stand that stand by each other through all of that and we knew that we had those fundamental to down and that we were aligned in it. Well, after you guys decided to take a jump off the end of the diving board, as you mentioned, I assume that one of the first challenges you guys face was going out to get vc funding. You guys better terrific track record of being able to secure funding from a vast number of investors. What is that like? Did you guys walk in and just, you know, nail it the first time? Did you have fifty eight years of rejection? Exactly that that process go? You know, it's interesting to say that. So one thing that we've always been very, very deliberate about investors. And so you know, one thing that we did do is, interestingly enough, well, we didn't one of... of the very first moves we we made was what's not the good at Bec Jesse and I, we actually self funded the company for almost a year, and the reason we did that was basically because we wanted to build conviction and build a protect and showed up what we had was real, and so we spent our first years self funding. In fact, we hide our first few employees and we self funded the endeavor for about the first year. After that we did approach some, a very small select number of investors. And here's the interesting thing, at least for me. I can't speak to jess because it's always been very good at that. He's always been very good at this. He's if you hear him, his his pictures are cling the crisp and he knows exactly what he's going to say. I wish I could say the same about myself, but that's not the case. So for me, in terms of speaking with a VC, I used to try to change my words and frame my passion in terms of market space and Tam and growth rates and caggers and what have you, and try to apply all these proxies for the passion. But very quickly I found that the people who didn't want to talk to me about the passion for the problem, for a passion forward we were solving, and wanted to talk about the market, the market instead. I quickly realized that these weren't the people I'd necessarily want on my board in the first place, because we were talking different languages while I was talking about, okay, we're going to go and solve this person's problem and we're going to do an amazing job of that. We're going to we're going to align with this company and we're going to make sure that there's that successful they're the ones who are turning around and saying, well, okay, how did we remove waste from this level of the value stream in this lean methodology? And I just couldn't wake up and go to work and say, Hey, you know what, I'm going to get jazzed about this. So what we found was picking those investors who shared the passion for the space and the art of the possible. That was what we need to look for, and so, rather than looking for a broad pitch for every single vc or even looking for a pitch, looking for people who are passionate about the space, so who are passionate about entrepreneurship. That's what we needed to look for and once we once at least once I realize that that's what I should be focusing on,...

...that entire BAC conversation became a whole lot easier. Well, certainly. You know, you guys walked in with a pretty accomplished track, records, like coming from a runaway success like F five. When you guys first started scoping out extrab what you were attacking, did you have to go through the you know, we always hear a romanticize stories about companies that had, you know, an infinite amount of pivots and a the studies and so forth. You guys have the vision kind of locked in day one and you're executing it? Or has it been kind of a meandering, twisting road? Now? You know, here's the thing, the interesting thing. It's that always has to be a constant, right. I mean the thing is in today's Day and age of people running everything from Agile sprints on development to people changing their ideas and moving and chasing very, very fluid markets people. There are a lot of things that change, but then needs to be a grounding and that grounding that we've had has been has remained constant since day one, and that grounding fundamentally is a two time tenants. Number One, the basis of our technology is that network information is fundamentally useful, that you that the reason for security breaches, the reason for performance anomalies today is a lack of visibility and that and it's only getting worse. So in terms of that problem space and the pain that has has, that has been constant and was reflected in twelve and a half years back and today the same pains associated with blindness. But the other thing that we've always focused on as an organization is customers first. Always the customer first, because the thing is, you can you can dream up all kinds of grandiose schemes in a white at a white board on a conference room and be no closer to an answer because you're not there on the front lines. So these two tenants have always permeated our organization. Now, yes, but that said, we did do a product line extension into security, but again it was because that's where our customers were pulling us. Customers were already using us in securities, in security work blues and use cases, and...

...we listen to them and we double down on making sure that our customers would be successful in those use cases. What's coming in loud and clear is the moniacal focus on on customers first. And you know, just even looking at your title right you are one point of president and now you're the chief customer officer. We can we can definitely tell that that's a big priority of yours and you know, candidly, you know some of the people that listen to our podcasts are CIOS and and you know, chief technology officers. Can you share maybe with them, you know, a gratifying story that maybe you heard from one of your customers, something that that extra hob did for them, that that might have really changed things for them? Absolutely? So what's so proud of them as an organization? To be really to be really blunt about it, but I mean some son bites that we have and I'll getting some stick specific technical details if you like me to. But when the things that we hear from our customers, when they come to our conferences, when they give us references to other people, we had an svp of a global financial services company stand on our stage at our kickoff and point at us and say, the moment I saw your product, the moment I engage with your company, it changed my career. You guys got me promoted. In another case, we had a customer who showed up and he said, you know what, we were backling these issues for four months on end. You know, you guys, you think you sell analytics. You know what you actually sell? You sell a peace of mind and sleep. And we had and we had a cio of a children's hospital coming over here, so to our to, one of our kicks of Khost as well, and he literally he put up this video explaining what their mission as a children's hospital was. And you know, I'll tell you one thing. You know, it was a tear jerk. I mean Jesse and I. We looked at each other afterwards and Jesse looked at me as I am never taking another penny from a children's hospital ever again. And the video, at the end of it, he looked, he looked at all of us and he said thank you for helping US save lives. And ultimately, the common theme throughout all of this, the common theme throughout all of this is we'd taken a problem that was incredibly hard... solve. The we took complexity, the problem was complexity, and we simplified it and we stood by our customers. We stood by by them and make sure that we were with them, shoulder to shoulder, as they were engaging with these problems. Now, specifically on the technology side, I mean I can tell you, I can I can give you many use cases, many use cases that are very, very hard to solve. For example, we had one case where a hospital was Bot twist knees by the fact that every so often nobody could log in, and we're talking about the EMR HR system, so they couldn't get patient records and there were issues in the emergency room because they're trying to admit patients and fear up what their drug allergies were and they couldn't get into these systems because the network just slowed down to a pool. And ultimately, extra hop was it was able to show that the problem was one doctorate put one on off gigabytes of photographs and their rooming profile and was logging in in a different part of the hospital, flooding and Saturating the network. And while one might look at that and say, Eg, that's kind of painful, that's kind of horrible, how else the somebody, you know, can somebody characterize what's moving over in an environment through Vdi, which is intend to construct all that away from the user? So the very things that make us substract, the application and the infrastructure, away from the user, are the ones that mosque and create more complexity while portraying that they reduced complexity. And so those are the things, the very difficult things that are hidden, that are masked, that have real implications. These are the problems that we really sing call teeth into. Those are great stories. Your piece of mind, sleep promotions, all those things you did for those hospitals. That's that's great. There's also a cautionary tail and there again about not wanting to upload photos. So I for that out there. Is that. Rajah, I had the opportunity of swinging by your office and downtown Seattle about a year ago and it's not a small operation. That's your running as you scaled up over the years, what are some of the challenges you've faced as the company's grown, kind of entered its toddler phase, entered its adolescence and... thou kind of, if you will, kind of entering its adulthood. How do you maintain culture and flavor and vision and mission? How do you do that through the through this growing and scaling process? You know, it's a very good question and it's something that's very near in there to our hearts. So there's a concept in sociology. It's known as dunbars number, and dumb bars number is basically the limit of social interaction you can have, that your average person can have. Now, in general that number of varies between one hundred two, hundred and fifty, but most those the only just hold that numbered about a hundred and fifty or a hundred fifty informal connections that you can have inside any sort of community and air quotes before you have to really get very, very deliberate about articulating, writing down building processes. So for us, what we found is certainly, as we blue post about a hundred two, hundred and fifty mark at x crop. We found that we needed to get very, very deliberate about the articulation of our culture, making sure that we articulated and making sure that we were consistent, making sure we were repeatable, making all the things that we sort of took for granted. They had to become very explicit. I mean for for Jesse and I and for in factful for everybody in this organization. I'll just go ahead and say it. Customer comes first. I mean nobody's even has to blink before you see it. But to take it for granted, to expect that somebody comes over here, goes through the onboarding process and just picks that up, unless we say it, unless we show it, unless we truly deliberately indoctrinate them with that and inculcatement with that cultural value. I mean you've got to be very deliberate. So it's about intentionality. It's about the deliberate and repeated articulation of those values without it without it degenerating into something, you know, almost campy. I mean it's we're not talking about office space moments here, where people, where people put up banners and say before I do anything is let's ask is it's good for the company, not, none of that crap. Pardon...

...up when let's say that sorry, none of that. Absolutely none of that to try us. But the problem over here is is is that you can't take to the granted, you have to be articulate, you have to be intentional, and that's that's the main thing that we've really focused on, and then building the culture we've been. We've gotten very, very deliberate, but articulately, even even if it sounds like it's repeated, when we do so well. It's often been said that the leader of a company, their real job title is chief reminding officer. Sounds like you've certainly taken that to heart. I imagine that along the way that you've probably run into a lot of myths that have grown up around startups and emerging technology. Certainly there's a bookshelf of books about the folklore in there. If you were to dispel some myths that are out there about startups, what are some that come to mind? Oh, the you know what? I think the biggest myth about startups is that they're on safe and I know that sounds contradictorative. You mean you you don't have to look very far before we hear about start up that closed its doors or some organization where everything was going well and then it completely folded or failer. But I think one of the biggest myths is that a start up is on safe. And here's the interesting thing. I think, I actually believe that a start up with a clearly articulate admission and good communication and he's strong culture is the safest place to be. It's the safest place to be, I mean because at that point in time you're your future is not being decided by financial engineering. It's being decided by the mission that you have bought into, that that mission that you are a part of, and I don't know of anything that's more safe than your own convictions, commonly held shed amongst a group of people you trust. I think that's the biggest myth of the startups, that it is that I startup is on safe. Well, I you know, I think that's probably reassuring, certainly to those in our audience who are at a startup, but it was flipping that around a little bit... some who are adding incumbents. Certainly a truism that just because you're at a large company doesn't necessarily mean you're you're safe. They're either. But, like we mentioned earlier about the Gardener Magic quadrant, you guys ranked quite high in the upper right quadrant, ahead of many large large enter prices, large incumbents, let's say companies that have entire campuses. Do you keep an eye on the competition? Do you take a look at the incumbents and what they're doing and how far ahead you are? Or maybe an area that maybe you're a little bit behind? So focusing on the income with and do you look over your shoulder for the guy in the Gal sitting in a garage cranking up a power point to go pitch to a VC in your space? Do you pay much attention to that or you just I straightforward. You know any organization that says they paid no attention whatsoever to the competition. They line they are and of course there's limited budgets. Now, with that said, we don't believe in the culture of scacity. We believe in the culture of abundance. So we believe that that these the markets that you are and they should be growing markets. But ultimately what we believe in is, as I mentioned earlier on, the first thing I opened with is the point of a company. The entire point is to provide value to its customers. Now, there are some value vectors which are actually which do rely on competition. So, for example, if you're going to provide lower prices then you need to competition to be charging higher prices probaus reasons, but ultimately the goal will be is to provide that outcome to your customers and not sit around and worry about what the competition it's doing. Now, with that said, though, I will say that competition actually validates the space and drives investment and awareness into the space as well. So it's not just good for the consumer, but if you have a compelling product and if you provide true value, competition is actually a very, very good thing. I mean, I'll tell you straight on. We we leverage competitors making noise in the market because it raises awareness for us and...

...especially when we get in and we can show them what they've been missing. It really it remakes the conversation a whole lot easier. Okay, thanks for that. I appreciate that. It's funny I've listening to you talk and you gave so much high praise to Jesse Rosstein and you were mentioning that he is so crisp and clear. Raja, you're pretty crisp and Clare. I gotta Tell You, this has been very, very impressive. Thank you very much. So many good nuggets here. You know the curiosity and Grit, you know the messy middle of a start up. There's so many things that I think our listeners are going to take away and I can tell you right now that I do think you might have thrown mark a bit of a new task, because I think he's going to be running and trying to understand this whole Dunbar's number thing. Mark. Yeah, well, you know, it certainly has been fun over the years watching extra hop evolved. We've certainly got a terrific relationship at trace through with you guys, and our customers certainly share with us the similar type of appreciation stories that you touched on earlier. Russia. I just really want to thank you for coming in today and spending some time with us, kind of going back down memory lane, kind of looking at the twisty journey that you've had and sharing some of these scar Tiss you've picked up along the way. Simply awesome. I thank you so much for coming in. Thank you very much for having me. Is there anything you wanted to share with the audience that we didn't cover Rasia? You know, there's actually just one thing, and you know whether you whether you choose to publish it or not, it's actually something that I think it's important, least from from our perspective as an organization. You know, Mare's many organizations where they don't exactly understand what success looks like and they'll say, hey, you know, this is the organization that's going to do it's going to be great because we take care of our employees. There's other ones that say, Hey, you know, we we're a great organization because we've provided a tremendous our white were investors. There's other ones who will put the customer first, and absolutely we. We place a tremendous amount of value on the customer. And yet there are others that have other greats along that spectrum. For us, we're...

...actually pretty clear. For us, what's constitute success is our employees, are investors, customers and our partners. Turning around and saying hey, that was something that was something diffrenchiated. And one thing I just want to go out there and say straightaway is that trace three is it epitomizes partner in terms of a company, in terms of a a reseller, a partner or an organization that really truly puts that customers first. It's going to pleasure working with you, you'll focus on innovation, you'll focus on us and you'll focus on making sure that everyone's working together. Is Truly amazing and it's been a pleasure and thank you very much again for the opportunity. Wow, that's awesome. How you have beer. It's very, very high praising and greatly appreciate it. Okay, with that, Raja, we're going to we're going to cut you loose. We know you got a business to run. Thank you so much for happing on board with with me and mark. Thank you. Trace three is hyper focused on helping it leaders deliver business outcomes by providing a wide variety of data center solutions and consulting services. If you're looking for emerging technology to solve tried and true business problems, trace three is here to help. We believe all possibilities live in technology. You can learn more at trace threecom podcast. That's trace, the number threecom podcast. You've been listening to the founder formula, the podcast for all things start up, from Silicon Valley to innovators across the country. If you want to know what it takes to lead tomorrow's tech companies, subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts until next time.

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