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The Founder Formula
The Founder Formula

Episode · 2 years ago

Elik Eizenberg, Co-founder BigPanda - Three Traits of People You Want to Found a Company Alongside

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today’s guest is Elik Eizenberg, Founder & CTO at BigPanda. On this episode, he speaks with us about his enduring love for data algorithms.  

The more you think about founding a company, the more you don’t want to do it. At some point, you’ll have to stop analyzing all the reasons not to and get started.  

What we talked about:  

  • Why analysis will keep you from founding your company 
  • The kind of people you want to found a company with 
  • Elik’s process of finding his target market 
  • Starting with mockups 
  • Why “Panda”  

To hear this episode and more like it, subscribe to The Founder Formula on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or tune in on our website

If you you know you're sending up up of a cliff and you can jump into a lake. The more you analyze it, the more the less likely you are it's actually jump off the cliffs into the lake. The founder Formula Brings you in behind the curtains and inside the minds of today's brave executives at the most future leaning startups. Each interview will feature a transformative leader who's behind the wheel at a fast paced and innovative tech firm. They'll give you an insider's look at how companies are envisioned, created and scaled. We hope you're ready. Let's get into the show. Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. My Name is Todd Galina, and with me, as always, thankfully, is the chief innovation officer at trace three, Mark Campbell. Hello Mark, Hello Todd, your welcome Lee. To kick things off, I just wanted to say that market I've been spending some time you looking at some gardener predictions. They just came out with their predictions for two thousand and twenty, and I know that you're also working on a prediction or two and and I think our listeners would love to hear those. Yeah, it's it's always interesting with predictions that they're they're not my favorite, my favorite task, but a lot of folks are asking, okay, what's coming for two thousand and twenty and so forth. Then, you know, I certainly see a lot of predictions out there. I think a lot of firms make predictions and some of them are a little bit overlea vague, some of them are a little captain obvious. So I've tried to keep my predictions for two thousand and twenty quite specific, maybe a little bit off the beaten path, things that I don't see a lot of folks tracking. So a little little squarely, a little esoteric, much like myself. Okay, more demand something bold. Yeah, I'll throw one out there and a couple of years from now, you guys keep me to task on this, I'll try to make it not a captain obvious. I'm not going to tell you I think iote's going to be big next year or supporting. We want something bold, something that we can go out, something a little over well, I'll try and also steer away from anything vague that says, you know, like in two thousand and twenty, leadership is going to be a key discriminator between the companies of succeed in the companies of value. That's so big. So I'll try give you some specific I hope I don't get too in the weeds, but certainly a trend we've been watching is the data governance, date of privacy, data sovereignty trends where government agencies, state agencies, even the European Union, of put into place legislative treatises like DDPR and CCPA, you know, to help swing the pendulum of control of data back over to the consumer side away from the Big Corporation side. You know there's soly been a great netflix documentary about the Cambridge...

Analytica fiasco and facebook and you know, certainly a lot of the legislation we see come into place as is certainly a reactive step towards breaches like that. I think that's definitely going to continue. So I put that kind of in the captain obvious category. However, something that's a little non obvious from that is that much of this data is not just sitting in some warehouse and and laying there as data for data say. Ton of it is going to train AI models, a I models, lest say on Todd Galina's spending habits, which will probably get todd sent to jail at some point in this stener. But the AI model that trains on that and knows to send comic con stuff to todd any day of the week and he's buying it, that model that's trained on that data, at least in the way legislation is drafted today, is not covered under that. So although you may have sovereignty over your data, what did you buy? Where did you go? What text messages did you send back and forth to the Secret Service, whatever the case is, all of that may be predicted by the various laws in place, but the AI models trained on that, at least for right now or not. So prediction for two thousand and twenty is, I think that the analytic side, the data analytics sovereignty, is opposed to just the data sovereignty. I think that's going to become a topic and I think it's going to be something that a lot of companies have to wrestle with, not just the you know, the big Amazons, you know twitters facebook's of the world, but even companies that are embedding ai into enterprise software, which is basically every enterprise software business I think they're going to have to take that into into account and say, well, okay, but how do I how do I control this? How do I how do I allow users to have sovereignty over the analytics collective? Very interesting topic. Hope that's not too far in the weeds, but there's one. No, I think that's a great prediction. And so basically, what you're saying someone's buying something and that exchange between the user and the place that he's transacting with is private and protected. But what you're saying is artificial intelligence is can be scanning it and kind of memorizing it and they're going to be basing predictive results, but it's the scanning that is what you're talking about. Yeah, so what will happen is AI, as it does today, will watch behavior. It'll pick out patterns from patterns that can either predict future behavior or it can report on anomalies from that pattern. But, like you say, you go online and you buy, you know, a cosplay outfit, you buy Comic Con Tickets, you buy a hotel outside the conference, your whole family winds up, you know, booking stuff through a travel side. All of that data is protect under data sovereignty. What the AI has learned from that is I bet next year, when comic CON COMES UP, I bet Mr Galena's going to go out and start booking something for his whole family. Let's start sending him some hotel with a free car reservation. So...

...while that date is protected, and if you wanted, you could call up and say I want you to delete all that transactional history of Todd Galina. It was a awesome, great by the way, going to comic con next year. Okay, so that's one prediction. Can we can we expect to see more out of you? Another one that this one is a little bit out there, meaning that this might be actually closer to two thousand and twenty one, but I do think it's true, and that's the automation of actual coding, and we're watching three particular use cases of that. One is ai coding, AI, which in a real terminator Meta that's beginning as kind of yeah, exactly, which which can't come soon enough from my perspective. But anyway, that's all other topic. But but that's already happening right with prodcxite, Google's automl but I think that's going to come to the forefront, even more for embedded products and even more so for just Ai. That sets up AI on your behalf. How's that? I think that was a lot more than even I expected. So Nice work. Well, go buy, go, buy stock with your money, not mine. All right, my man. Are you ready to get to our guests? I've been looking forward to this now. No, the this should be fun. Super excited have today's guest on some similarities and background with other the founders that we've had on the show and a couple little nuances, a little bit different, little bit off the beaten path. So I think that's going to make for a great show. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. Our guests is the founder and chief technical officer for big panda, which is a Tech Company located in Palow Otto, California. They provide intelligent automation for it incident management. Is Company was just named in the Forbes Ai Fifty, which is America's most promising artificial intelligence companies. Please welcome to the show, Elik Eisenberg. Welcome, Elek. Thank you, I thought in mark. Thank you for inviting me. Hey, it's really good to get you on the show. Alick. I know over the past of our our relationship. We've had some good, interesting conversations and some some opportunity to write indecipherable diagrams on white boards that I'm sure made no sense to anyone except for you and me, and probably not even to me, but every minute of it. Well, you're very kind of gracious. For a little bit of context. You guys have had time of coverage in the media. Certainly your customer base is growing leaps and bounds right now. But for our audience, give a little bit of context on big panda, what you do, the problems you're solving for your customers. Sure. Yeah, the premise of the company is around this very deep belief that we have, around the fact that in the modern world, even the very...

...simple task of just keeping your lights on as an enterprise, it has become too complex today to for human beings to do that. If you are a retailer, can be an insurance company, you can be an airline, doesn't really matter. Just the DIS tact to day around infrastructure and applications. It's so crumbled that it's so large that you cannot rely on people to do that. You have to rely on AI. So what we did with the Fanda, we essentially assembled the team of world class data scientists and data engineers and together we build this product, this platform, that tries to invest this challenge by introducing AI and data processing techniques to the world of ID operations management. So it's certainly having a large impact companies around the world. But I know that's not where things started. So if we rewind the clock a little bit, what in your background made you think that you could go out and start a successful company? What were some of the zigs and Zags along the way that led you to founding big panda? Yeah, a good question. You know my background, where I spend most of my career, that was in the Israeli intelligence service, and I was part of a unit that is actually very similar to the NSA here in the United States. What we did there, just like the NSA, we essentially process terabytes of data every minute, huge amounts of data, and we had to analyze the data, we had to translated the crypt it routed to the right intelligence analyst and obviously, at this scale of data there's no way to do that with people, so you have to do that based on automation and Algorithms and honestly, I was doing that for but six years. I fell in love with that. It just data processing is going to change the world. There's so many things you can do with data processing like source first and how Algorithm can actually solve some really complex problems. So the first thing I did when I left the intelligence service was actually joined I follow the money and I joined a hedge fund. And in that's a hedge fund. We essentially traded on wall streets using computer algorithms and we were very successful in making money just by letting algorithms look at a feeds of quotes and try to buy and self talk intelligently. But that only increase my conviction that what you can do today with data to process data in an intelligence way, if you apply the right algorithm, you can solve some of the world's biggest problems. So where were after these two organizations, these two environments? What I felt was that there has, there has to be other opportunities out there in the market where you can apply the same line of thinking and soulps some real problems. And the more, the more time I was thinking about it, the more I felt like I wanted it, the more I felt like, Hey, I can do this and at a certain point you just reach, you hit the point of no return and then you just do Alec, you mentioned that your background is is military, and it's funny. So, as marks, we got two former technical military folks on the podcast. I know that some people, at least here in the US, a lot of people, don't think of the military and a technical career along the same path. Can you talk a little bit about that and would...

...you recommend that for folks who might be listening? I certainly would. I'm extremely thankful for what I got in the military intelligence. I can tell you this. I think in terms of the quality of people, the level of challenges, that the technology, I think you what you see in a military environment is the same level of what he will see in some of the most high end companies out there in the commercial market. But what you have in the army that you are in the military, that you don't have an other areas. It's just this sense of everyone and everyone feels like they are pre seeing a certain mission, they're trying to achieve a certain mission. That is incredibly important. This is keeping people safe, essentially. So think about being environment that is very high end in terms of the quality of people and the quality of technology, but also having a very deep sense of importance to what you do and that, I think that results in some very interesting interactions and some very interesting project. You know, I I certainly share share some of those sentiments. Led the transition from military to civilian is sometimes a little bit difficult. The rules and protocols of a military environment sometimes translate directly into a civilian type environment. However, your point about having that common mission in that all the goal. That certainly is something that has sertaly well, sounds like you'd likewise, if you were to lay out some of the motivations of starting big panda. What was that big mission that you saw that hey, we can get into this. I think we can do better than the solutions on the market and I really think this is a mission that I can get people to rally around. Can you tell us a litle bit about that? You know, I have to start with, I think, a very, very frank answer to this that I'm sure you heard from a lot of people on this broadcast, that the more you think about funding a company, the more you don't. You don't want to do it. Write. The more you think about it, the thoughts that passed through your mind are essentially reasons why not to do it, because it's a high risk proposition by destinition and you have all the reasons in the world not to do it, but you have very few reasons to actually do it. And I always equity to if you you know you're standing on top of a cliff and you can jump into a lake, the more you analyze it, the more the less likely you are to actually jump off the cliff into the lake. So to your question, you know I was it was very important to me to bring I fell in love with the idea of data processing and Da Algorithms. They felt like that can solve many of today's problems and it was very important to meet to help in that journey for essentially for many time, to go and embrace these technologies and these techniques to solve many problems. That was important to me. But on a personal level, it was my t me. The way in which I decided to find a company, to found the company, was just not to think about it. That that's the main piece of Advit eyes I can give anyone. Just don't think about it. Well, certainly one of the things that, as your talk about that on top of the cliff. Try to talk yourself into jumping is you're probably not jumping alone. I know you...

...had a co founder and kind of that initial team. How did you go through, you know, picking other folks to help start the company with, and then those first couple critical hires? How did you how did you go through that? So you don't think I think this is an area where I have my point of views might be a little bit unpopular, but I think normally what people will tell you, hey, you got to build a very diverse team where you have different personalities, different mindsets, and then people will complement each other. Based on my experience at least, I disagree with this point of view. I feel like having a lot of common ground is actually very important in your founding team, in your first few employees. You have to make sure that you share a lot of values, if not all of them. Need to make sure you have similar attitude for the world, for problem solving, and the reason I say this is that I feel like the most important thing startup has to have in the first few years of existence is focused, drownd focused, you're you're not going to survive it. It's very hard you have to be very focused. You don't have a lot of resource that you have a lot of people. have to be highly focused. And what do you do, and what drives focused to me, is alignment. So you have to have a lot of common ground, you have to have people that are similar to you to think like you, and then have alignment and then you have to question. That's how you get to the next stepisode to me, a lot of that was looking for people that have a suliar mindset to me, that love data like myself. It love crous solving these kinds of problems with data, people that are humble, that are hungry. We just look for people that are essentially could be our, you know, our buddies when we went out to have a beer. It's funny that you mentioned that because I don't know if he's mentioned on this podcast, but one of the founders said, hey, you won't really only want to hire somebody that you would want to sit next to on a long flight. Exactly. So one of the things that comes up in and this is the most of your question, but a lot of people who are interested in doing a startup they obsess about the name just said earlier, not to really spend a lot of time talking yourself out of doing a start up. But the name is a big deal and some people have mentioned that. Sometimes, you know, the name is a representation of culture. You guys chose a name that obviously stands out from from other tech companies. was there a wrestling match around that? WAS THAT PRETTY EASY? You know, we one of the areas where we had common ground was around our love for pandas. Both our south my co founder and CEO. He loved pandas. I love pandas pandas there strong their kind, we felt like we knew the Pantas are going to be part of Our Name. Stout really wanted the name to be bionic panda, but it turned out that was taken by a gaming company, so we ended up with big PATA. Well, todd, there goes the name of our startup. We were going to start biotically, and I guess yes, sounds like one of the things you guys did on on your long flights was talking about Handus. That's that's and our des football papers were pandas. The big fans of Patas. They're great features well, and pandas are quite rare, as...

...you guys are too. When you were starting out, you guys got some seed funding from sequoia capital out in Israel. When you wait in to do that initial pitch, right, you're walking in with your pitch, your cofounder, you're going in. What was that like? Did you just like hit it out of the park your first time, or did you have a couple stumbles, or did it take a while to really craft craft your story and your your target? What was that process like? Yeah, you know, we had to be frank, we had a little bit of an unfair advantage. My Co founder of stuff, he spent six years in Sea Claire Capital as an investor, so he said, on that side of the table for many years, and I think he's very good. To this day he's very, very good in translating our story to something that to language that investors can understand. So I think we when it came to fund raising, that was never a huge challenge for us. There was always something where, you know, I think the market was large, the problem we were solving was very clear and I stuff was very good in telling that story in a way that investors enjoyed. I think one area where we need have a challenge. I would say is that as we were starting out, I think most investors or pretty savvag when it came to things like networking or security or storage or virtualization, but when it came to Internet management, event management, kind of it, operations, these were areas that not many investors understood well and I think a big part of what we had to do as we were building our pitch from those so education investors around the ecosystem, around the pain, around the personas. So that I recall very vividly how many of our side were just educational slides to help people figure out why this was important and why this was meaningful. Well, you know, you're kind of saying that your initial venture into the customer ecosystem was kind of explaining some of the concepts and so forth. While you're going through that, did you learn some things from the customers that caused you to take on the OFT quoted pivot? Right, there's a lot of folks that that kind of believe startups they just successfully pivot, you know, once every hour. There's other people that believe that no, no, stick to your guns, stay true to your vision. As you got out into the customer ecosystem, did you find that you guys needed to pivot any time in your product offering? I'll give you, I think, an unexpected answer. Our first fundraising, our first round of fund raising was actually not around I operation was around building essentially processing and analyzing social media signals for arkeets. That was the company that we pitch to sequoia when they first invested in big Tenda, and it took us a little bit over six months to realize that. We then lected space for a couple of reasons. One was around all the privacy concerned from concerns in that space, but I think they try. One was the fact that as we were starting to sell our platform...

...in that space, it became evident that what people in the in the space, in the marketing space, third about was not as much deep technology but more around how you package the technology, how the story and cell around the technology. And when we had an honest conversation about that stuff and myself, we realize that our differentiate or what would do best is actually deep technology. This is the team we build, this is our vision. It's all about deep technology. So we cannot play in a space where technology does not play a central role. And we went to our investor and we told them it's the quite a custom. We told them, listen, we feel like this not the right space press and they actually were very surprisingly. They were extremely positive and supportive and they say yes, let's find another space where you can where people would respect that kind of technology and where technology would be the main interior to making a buying decision. and quickly, within a couple months, we we decided to focus on it operations and Internet management. We spoke to quite a few companies. All of them spoke about the signal to noise problem in I operations. All them spoke about how data is complex and large scale. So it was very clear that there was an opportunity there. So back to your question around on, around pbodying, I think we made a huge pvod. After we experience the market for a while, we realize that we had to find a market that is a better feed for our DNA and and and the people that we had assembled together. Well, that's that's certainly a dramatic change in target market. And I imagine this soon as you got kind of over into the Itof side of the house, building a product, learning the environment, learning the challenges, what the current solutions were in finding a NU tree er solution. I know from discussions with you that wasn't an easy process. Can you talk a little bit about you know, you just made this massive pivot. Now we've got to build a new product on a whole different area. Can you talk a little bit about the journey until you guys sat back and said Wow, we've got a product that we can go to market with. What was that journey like? Yeah, sure, it was a roller coaster for sure, but I think we had a very smart process from shorty durations and feedback from customers. What we essentially did? We for every idea or concept that we had. We didn't go to the engineering team and ask them to develop that. What we did first we created some really high quality mock ups that's looked essentially left a product, and we made it a thing to talk to at least twenty thirty customers for each such mock up and make sure that that resonates with them in the first team versions. They can tell you people that we were stupid and what we're doing didn't make any sense and it will not hold their problems. But, as we iterated, thing is, you know, slowly, when we came to mock up number seven, number eight, people starting leaning forward and saying, you know what, that Con's all of a real problem for me. This is what I need. If you can do this, the technology behind is behind it, if the algorithm can work, I would certainly buy it and use it. So that was kind of beach rating process we went through until we had a lott of conviction that what we were building was a real concern and a real,...

...real thing that would solve real problems for our customers. But I'm sure that as soon as you started getting that market traction and the Revenue Stream, not only was Sekoy a little bit relieved in their best what I imagine, but now you've got the next challenge, which is how do you scale up your scale up your company, reach new markets and so forth? Can Talk a little bit about some of the challenges of Scaling Up Your Company while retaining that startup feel, that unique big panda culture. If you talk a little bit about how you guys have accomplished that? Yeah, yeah, you know, I think we have. We're very fortunate to have a very good go to market part of our organization. The Marketing in the sales teams are really high end and in terms of growing our customer based and our relationships with these customers. I think we're very good at that and I haven't seen any any challenges in that area. I think more culturally or in terms of how we build our organization, there has been some dramatic shift in recent years where we became essentially distributed. But we have an engineering team in television, we have a saled in customer success game in New York. We have our sales leadership actually, like is based in Orange County in California. In our headquarters were marketing and a stop and in the CFO and other pew people are aadi is in mountain view. So the company at this point is it's very distributed and that means that if you want everything transparency and honesty and good communication between different teams, you can no longer rely on known formal communication. You know nobody's. We don't sit in the same office or in the same room anymore and our strategy has been to rely heavily on tools that are, thankfully, are now available out there. So we rely heavily on flap, we equip for our knowledge management. We rely on UNZOOM, of course, for communication and we and we use those tools heavily and we make sure that everything is written down and and you know, it's treaty color thing for us for the next space to remain transparent and to have great alignment and communication and, like I said, focus is a big thing for us. So these tools are big enablers to that end. Yeah, you just painted a picture how you can scale even though people are geographically separated, and continue to have alignment and talked a little bit about the tools to do that. I want to rewind really quickly back to something you mentioned earlier, if you don't mind. You were talking about when you're iterating the product. You know, you were talking about doing mock ups while you were pivoting. You know, mark and I are big fans of this gentleman named Jake Nap. He wrote a book called a sprint and he's talked specifically about, you know, quickly being able to iterate. He mentions in his book that he uses power points as the primary tool to do that. Can you share with us a little bit about how you guys iterated on the fly and how you created that? The mockups you mentioned in terms of tools will we use? Was essentially a combination of the envision which is a real relatively new tool. I think it was launched about five years ago. That was a big part of what we use. We use or even six years I think at this point. So we use in envision...

...a lot. We Use Envision Essentially lets you upload, you know, screenshots of their product, but then also make them interacted such that you can click on different areas of the product and will take you to different scream that was a big part of it. Today there's tools like sketch that allow you to very quickly mock up some very nice looking Uys. We had a vary from essentially our fifth or third higher we had. It was the top myself, two engineers, and the third higher we had was a UX versus, essentially user interaction designers and and the reason that person was so instrumental for that phase was that we said, hey, we can, we can write code all day long, but if it's not the right code, if it's not what people care about, we're just spending money and stay wasting time. To our idea was to silt of code stuff, just build those small cups in envision, show them to customers, let them play around with that, see if they're engaged, if they like it, only then go back and actually code whatever we build. It's getting here. Your third higher was more of a creative person. That's great. Was the third or fourth higher? Third Higher. That's great. So we were just talking about some of the books out there on start up methodologies and philosophy and concepts and so forth. There are a lot of books out there. There are even a huge comedic TV shows out there about the startup world. There's kind of a certainly an it this this startup fantasy of what it would be like to go open up your own company and take on the big guys. Can you tell me a little bit about maybe some of the myths that you've found that the Irish person probably sees in the Romantization of a start up that you've kind of found maybe or not true? Yeah, I love this question. You know, to me I think the biggest thing would be around the holy idea of being your own boss for people. Tell people think, you know, when you start your company you become your own boss, you can make your own decisions and I certainly had that mindset when I started the company. That was my expectation. The reality of it is that you actually answered too many more people. When you own a company, answer to your customers and you know as an owner, if your customers unhappy, you are unhappy. And then you answer to the employees and you're even answered to their families and of course you answered to the board and to investors. So it turns out that as a founder you actually answered to way more people than you do as as just an individual contributors, an employee of the company, and that was very different than what I expected when I started it. Over time you learn to really like it, you know it Theydka. It turns out to be an incredible experience and you become very thankful for the opportunity to to answer to all these people. But I think that's certainly a miss where you talked a lot of people and you asked them why do you want to start a company? To say I want to be my own boss. That's not going to happen if your successful. I think you're absolutely right. Well, and you mentioned that one of the constituencies that you have to answer to is to your customer base. When you guys were first starting out and you started getting those first first wins, first customers,...

...those first checks started coming in, the proved that your product was really onto something. If you share with US maybe some of those early wins, some of the ones that let you guys sleep a little bit better at night that you knew that you were on your way? You have any great customer stories? Yeah, I have a very clear one in my head where it was this one of the world's biggest companies, essentially, and they were looking for a vendor to solve a problem, exactly the problem that we were solving. And and this vender is known for being having a very thorough and street process for vendor selection and due diligence. So what they did? They reached out to every vendor in the space, every services company in the space. Then they asked them to do a demo and then and a proof of concept to to show that they can solve the problem for that customer. And back then, on our end, people are just a thirty person company. We the product was very focused, very tiny at that point and we were competing with some ten billion dollar companies. So that was I was very surprised when it eventually they selected us. They said we were vendor of choice and you know what I did is I went to after the deal was done and all the paperworkers behind us, I went to one of the evaluator and asking generally, I said, you have to tell you why you why did you select big pand out of all these options that you had? And what he said was that we were the only vendor out of literally more than ten different vendors, we were the only vendor that actually listened, listen to them, listen to what they asked us to do rather than preach our own opinion or own point of view. And you know, that is I think that is a lesson that I took with me to heart and every time I find myself in a conversation with the customer, I always remember myself, you know, told about listening. It's not about preaching like that. You know, at this point I have a lot of opinions. I've seen a lot of the market, but every marketing, every customer is unique, every customer is different, every customer has different priorities right now and the key to having a successful conversation with the customers always to listen first. So I try to make sure I have kind of the two thirds rule where if I don't listen for two thirds of the discussion. That's the problem. That's great. That's great and I think we all kind of forget that and that's a good rule to thirds. I like it. Hey, LEC, this has been great. We really appreciate you joining mark and myself on the call today. We obviously learned a ton in our in our audiences. As learned a ton. Is there anything we might not have asked you that you'd like to share with the audience? No, guys, you really enjoyed this. Thank you very much. Hope to talk to you against him well. Thank you very much. I like guy. I've got a couple notes that I've taken here that I'm going to try to incorporate into my day to day active they like the listening more. I know my wife will appreciate that. But Anyway, I appreciate your car downd, some some time to spend with us today and I'm sure that I'm sure that our audience will find some of the tales from the trenches that you've...

...shared with us in a very literal way to be quite lightning. Thank you, guys. Trace three is hyper focused on helping it leaders deliver business outcomes by providing a wide variety of data center solutions and consulting services. If you're looking for emerging technology to solve tried and true business problems, trace three is here to help. We believe all possibilities live in technology. You can learn more at trace threecom podcast. That's trace, the number threecom podcast you've been listening to the founder formula, the podcast for all things start up, from Silicon Valley to innovators across the country. If you want to know what it takes to lead tomorrow's tech companies, subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time,.

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