The Founder Formula
The Founder Formula

Episode 35 · 3 months ago

Vikram Kapoor, Co-founder Lacework – Navigating the Startup Marathon


This entrepreneur knows that to build a successful company, the clients’ experiences, motivations, issues, and mindset comes first. Vikram Kapoor, Co-founder and CTO of Lacework, talks about the origins of his customer-centric mentality in his journey of building a Series D funded technology startup. 

Vikram tells co-hosts Sandy Salty and Todd Gallina about the most important factors in scaling Lacework - the shared principals and keeping a pulse on competition. Hear about the ins and outs of building a founding team, what happens at different capital funding stages, ups and downs in different global economic times, and a Founder’s Slack messaging strategy in this episode of the Founder Formula.

Listen to this and all of The Founder Formula episodes at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website.

Ironically, for me, like you know, my best day on the worst day happened to be, like you know, the same day. So they can't get creasy. The founder Formula Brings you in behind the curtains and inside the minds of today's brave executives at the most future leaning startups. Each interview will feature a transformative leader who's behind the wheel at a fast paced and innovative tech firm. They'll give you an insider's look at how companies are envisioned, created and scaled. We hope you're ready. Let's get into the show. Hey, everybody, welcome back to the show. My Name is Todd Galina, and with me today is the chief marketing officer at trace three, Sandy Salty. Tod, how's it going? It's good. It's good to be back with you. It is super exciting to start this next leg of podcasts. We're excited to announce that we have a bunch of podcasts that are gonna be coming out, starting with this one. Um, we're gonna be talking a little bit more specifically about founders in the cloud security space. Yeah, well, and it's like it's such a such an emerging and growing trend. It's super relevant to the world of technology, obviously, and specifically traced three like we are calling our shot on cloud security and we're making a lot of investments in that arena. So it's it's pretty perfect actually that we have a bunch of cloud security founders lined up. Yeah, and not only is it exciting that we are launching a new batch of episodes, but we are going to be doing most of them from our super cool new headquarters here in Irvine, California. You and I are sitting in one of our cool new podcasting rooms, not completely finished, but you know, here we are back in the office, back in new digs. It's awesome to be with people again. Totally. People are people are showing up, even the ones who are even working from home while we had our previous digs. People are showing up to see the new office, how bright it is, how open it is. Yeah, there's a lot of curiosity and I think people are remembering just like how much fun it is to like hang out and have a bite and have a cup of coffee together and catch up on like life. You know, it feels like every conversation in the past couple of years has been like a zoom conversation that's focused only on business and you forget that, like it's actually like all the other stuff that helps you connect with other people. It's like how is their family doing? What's going on with their dog? You know, yeah, totally, what's happening with the Kiddos and so, Um, it's it's it's just that, you know, you don't really take the time to have those types of conversations until you see people in real life. Yeah, it's funny, like you'll be on a zoom call with like twelve people and you're like, can you eleven people leave? I have to ask John About his surgery. You know, it never happens. But okay,... we've got we've got some exciting news there. I have to warn our listeners because the episode that they're about to hear was recorded between our old office in our new office, and so we went and we found a super cool open workspace called the Hannah House. We recorded the episode. It was great, Um, but then when I went back and listened to it, we had some serious we had some serious echo. So it'll only get better after this first episode. Yeah, well, and it was not the perfect place for like a sound studio, but pretty pleasing to the eyes. What don't you say? Oh, heck yeah, I mean, I would love to work there, UM, if I didn't have this brand new, cool place by the way. Okay, so us being together in this new office, people rolling in is definitely a sign of kind of the world, you know, getting back to normal, whatever normal is. But you know what's another sign that like we're headed back to normal world? What we have evolved? Coming up in October, conference is back in session after a two year hiatus. Yes, and I know you're very passionate about evolve, having been someone that built it within trace for you love that show. Um, so it's in Vegas this year, Cosmopolitan. So we're getting better and better every year. Never thought you could evolve evolved, but it's happening. and Um, we have been at this company long enough to develop some amazing memories that evolved over the years. Um, I know you have a couple of kind of really big memories related to evolved. Do you have anything you want to share with Oh my gosh, like meeting the was and there's a whole lead up to him appearing at the show and him being there and I'm just a massive was SNIAC fan as a Mac user and the whole thing. So I loved I love that and maybe we'll tell some lot stories. But I think for to answer your question having Mike Tyson there. We had him there a few years ago. He was the host of our outlier gala, which happened after our, you know, giant outlier awards. But those who have had a chance to to meet me, there's a picture of me standing next to Mike Tyson and my eye is busted open and there's your eye. And, by the way, never would be funny in any other scenario, but the fact that you're standing next to the one of the best boxers in the history of the universe with a big gas on top of your eye and he's pointing at it. Yeah, everyone thinks. Of course, the obvious math is that he punched me in the in the eye. But the truth is when we were trying to move so quickly to get people to kind of have a meet and greet with him, I happened to walk straight into a glass door. Um, kind of like the way a bird would fly into a window.

Should not laugh now. In my defense, that door I had been going in and out of probably a hundred times over the previous like forty minutes and somebody went ahead and closed it. Yeah, I mean, in your defense, that door walked into you d door. So so I have this so I don't even kind of realize that this has happened because it's moving so fast. And then I go and I and I sit down for a couple of minutes and I happened to be sitting next next to Mike and I looked down and I'm bleeding all over his legs. He's got like the Super Nice suit. I mean, most people get to shake Tyson's hand, maybe give him a hug if the rave enough. I mean, who gets to believe all over Mike Tyson? That's a level into the scene. There's probably liked that and me. Yes, I said, you added a new angle to that. But but what about you? So you've got to have a great memory of this. Oh my Gosh, oh, so many. I mean, I think for me all the outlier work shows are memorable. Like I remember the year todd you and I hosted outlier and it's one of my favorite years of all time. Super Fun. Well, you've done such a good job. You've become the permanent host the outliers. Now you've been you'll be going on to doing your your fourth one. Right. Yeah, it's almost it's like prison. It's like one of those things you can't get out of. It's just kind of awesome. Thank you. But I will say my favorite memory, probably evolved memory, of all time. This is how I would describe it. I got to drive on stage in one of the fastest cars in the world, owned by the guitarist of guns and roses, in front of a thousand plus person audience. Need I say more? I think that's a drop of my moment, for sure. I is super iconic and, as I recall that this car had those doors, that kind of the side over the doors. Yes, and yourself and the CEO of the San Francisco Giants, Bill, got out of the got out of the car. Yes, it was epic tout and the I guess the scariest part of that was like not pressing the gas pedals, you're just driving right into the well, truthfully, I mean like so as a result of that show, I had a chance to meet, as I mentioned, the guitar of the guns and noses, who, by the way, is like one of the nicest guys ever and he let us borrow his car and I remember when he was giving the instructions, he was like look, you don't even need to press the gas pedals, just release the brake just ever so slightly. The car drives itself, like literally, just released the brake. It'll do the rest. And I remember I'm on stage, curtains are opening and in my head I'm like just release the brakes. It sudden movements. Yeah, cool, yeah,..., no, it was a pretty special moment like that. That's one of those like if I'm sitting on my deck, but as a ninety year old woman. Yeah, like that. I'll recall that moment. It's uh, I mean I was obviously there and I saw it happened live and and it was awesome. Even when you know what's going to happen and you see it, it was incredible. It's by the way, people can check that out online, unline, unlike the busted eye of Todd Galina. They can see. You should put that online too, you know. Oh my gosh. Okay, alright, so just a reminder to our audience. Will have a little bit of dipping audio quality, but we're gonna have a great interview and I hope you guys enjoy it. Okay, asked promise. Our guests started out as a software engineer and was soon architecting and leading engineering teams. He worked on big data and analytics for a long time before jumping into security. Today he's a founder in chief technical officer of lease work, which is a data driven cloud security company. They deliver ended in visibility and automated insight into risk across multi cloud environments. They're located in San Jose, California. We're excited to have on the show. Big Room, poor, big room, thanks for having on. Yeah, thanks a lot for having me. I really appreciate it and, you know, really looking forward to it. Welcome to this show, bick crime. Let's start with the first question. First and foremost, tell us about least work and why you started it. Um. So let's focus. UH, the security company focused on helping customers secure their infrastructure of you know, all the way from data centers to cloud, like, primarily cloud, uh, and multiple aspects of securing it, you know, which goes all the way from ideas to unibility, management compliance, containing our scubul it ees, you know, and another cloud infrastructure and we really started because, you know, like seven years ago and we were looking into the problem, we found that for most of the you know, companies that were running like large environment at scale, they were really having trouble kind of figuring out what's going on environment at all, and if they couldn't figure out what's going on, there was a very little chance that they could find something, you know, wrong because of security. So it was pretty clear that there is a good, you know market here where, if you solve the problem at scale in an automated way, then we can basically, you know, solve a real customer problem and have some value there, and that's really why we started at least perfect well, this isn't your first go around working for large technology companies. You would work previously for a few others before you decided to start your own, when your background made you think that you could start and run a successful company. So, to be honest, at that point I didn't know it will be successful company, but I was pretty sure of like two things, you know, before we started, like and then it's just me, like the founding team overall, one that, you know, whatever we were thinking of to build was something that was a value to a customer, and partly because we were on on the other side of being a customer to our product and our previous like jobs at one...

...point or the other. And secondly, we can build a product. So if you are sure that you can build a product, then it's a value to a customer. Like, you know, it's kind of a point to start and then beyond that is, you know, just kind of going through it and then, you know, eventually, hopefully, it becomes a little but those are the two things. And in my background, like, I've built a lot of products, you know, starting from zero to one, like you know, before I did at least work, and that's what really gave me confidence that, you know, we can go ahead and like, you know, build something and it's something that we would be actually useful there. So that you mentioned value to client and you know, we've heard and seeing many of your interviews and and always pick up on on this sort of client first approach mentality. Where did that come from? Like it was it a set of clusters learned over the over the years, Um, and then the secondary question to that is, like how do you instill that value in your teams? Yeah, it's actually a great question. Like you know, when it goes back a long time back. You know, when I was like based clear a teenager, my my father had a, you know, a textile shop, and I would I basically had to go there like every day I had, you know, any vacation from school right like starting from like maybe thirteen or fourteen years old. Uh. And then, you know, at one time when I was in like eighteen or nineteen, he sent me out and said, like you need to go buy some stuff to sell to customers. So I went there, I was alone, I picked up a bunch of stuff which was, you know, things that I would like to wear and things that, you know, would look good to me. And when I brought it back, you know, and I tried to kind of sell it to actual customers, I couldn't do it. Like they would not buy it. And it took me like two or three years of constantly, like every day I was there, I was trying to sell what I bought and you know, it was still there. It would still be there next time I go there, and I just kind of annoy me and eventually a kind of figured that, you know, like what you know, what I bought was something that was pleasing to me, but that was not something about the customers were looking for and they had a different background, they had different kind of economics and they had different kind of things that they were looking for, and that point I had to kind of start pivoting to like what do they like and kind of understand that better. So next time and I went out to buy something, I have to kind of consciously buy something that they would like and have to keep that person Ahind my mind, and that that kind of, you know, went a long way for me over the last thirty years now, where I've always kept the customer Focus Front and center to make sure that whatever we build is something that customers would find value. And to do that, you know, it's easier said than done. You have to really put yourself in their shoes, kind of understand their lives, understand what their motivations are and then figure out what you should build. Uh, and so so that kind of stays with me from that point onwards. Um, and one of the things that we do to kind of instill that in our team is really just talking about it. Like every conversation has to basically end with like how is it that whatever we're doing is going to be value to a customer? How does it kind of change their life in some way? How does it make them, you know, be delighted to the product? Or on many times they are like different opinions and then you have to kind of front them through to kind of find the one that's actually the... right and so it's really a lot of conversation and alignment that has to happen for us to kind of get aligned on what the customer value is. I have this it's a great, great story. I have this vision of you running through this marketplace, you know, grabbing these different items. And were you just grabbing like like so, see, any would go and have a bunch of beads and I would go on to grab yeah, so for you, was it? Was it like certain colors weren't working or certain fabrics, or was it just the whole thing? Well, that's a really funny story. They're like, so I'm at the heart and engineer. Even then, even though it's not an engine I still was. So for me it was always alwayst always like everything I bought was basically like a high quality textile and a good cost. It happened to look good enough to me. To my eye right like and I would buy it and I would be like, oh, it's a great extile and a good cost and, you know, should be able to sell. And guess what, it didn't sell right at all. Right, because sometimes you're actually one of the examples, which is very relevant there, is that when people go looking for a wedding clothes, for example, right, you would think it's a wedding day, people want like the most expensive or the best quality textile, but it's actually one time were so most people want something that they can wear one time, look good and throw it away. So in general, like the motivation to buy something, is that the core of what you need to sell? And for me the big thing it was all about like quality and, you know, cost. But that turned out to be exactly the wrong thing to do, to kind of figure out what to buy, basically, right. I love that and it's amazing how often, I think, businesses forget to correlate the decisions that they're making to how it drives the client experience, how it drives client value. And and I love what you said about ending every meeting with okay, how does this benefit the client at the end of the day? Um, it's, you know, really kind of triggers that kind of the you know, this concept around Um, around ship Luft, and actually traced we um has taken it a stuff farther and we've we've we've started to token the concept of start left and really kind of always considering Um, the client teams and the clients Um, in our approach to business making and in our approach to sort of advising our our clients as well. Bind a question about your gigs. With the previous four startups, you obviously went through some difficult times, ups and downs in the economy, which we're kind of kind of experiencing currently at the moment. You went through some things in in two thousand eight. Were there any lessons learned with kind of an economic up and down scenario that you went through that you can apply to what's going on today? Well, yeah, definitely. So it's actually, uh, you know, all in hindsight. So I wasn't smart on it. It was all the eight to figure it out. But today, you know, in fact, like ten years ago, when I look back at that era, what I found was that among all my friends and all the people I knew, people who are focused on, you know, creating customer value and just focus on product...

...building stuff. Actually, it turned out to we do much better after the downturn, right, because you were able to kind of create something that was, you know, useful and then, you know, once you come out of the downturn, then it was useful to customers and it could sell it. But or all, like, you know, that's really the big lesson I dropped from that where you know, like you always keep focusing on, you know, building value and if you're doing that, then at some point, you know, yes, some downturns are crazier than the others and some you survives and we don't. But or all, your best bet is basically you know, survive the down tern and keep focusing on value and then you come out of it at some point. Well, speak, well, speaking of value, translating into sort of the valuation of the company. You you close your series d round last year. Congratulations. Thank you. Tell us about that to me. Do you do you have to pitch the vcs every time? What what makes the experience of one fundraising round different from the previous? Yeah, actually, in the beginning I had to like, you know, the lot of the initial conversations on you know, seed round, series a series, well, all about product, all about differentiation and all about, you know, what we're doing and how can that make a mythical difference to how many people? And then it was like, you know, I had to be very heavily involved in that. But as we kind of grow from like C C to series V, now it's a lot more about like, you know, we have a product, we have a differentiated product, it's really good. We have like a good, you know, team in place. Now it's a lot about like numbers and you know, you know, sales and go to market, essentially. So it kind of changed over time, but basically I think that's kind of norm for most startupts where it starts off with the product focused thing and eventually moves into a into a marketing financing finance discussion essentially. So as a kind of happened, like you know my you know, you know my pitch kind of uh, you know, requirements kind of reduced down over time. Okay, yeah, so bit room. You know, you start a company, you've been around a little bit, you've made a you people here, you've met a few people there, but now it's time. You don't want your own company and you get to literally handpick who you want to be on your founding team. Um, how did you go about doing that? Yeah, that's actually a great question, and you know, the way I think about it. Uh, in fact, when we did, at least for you, have a very small team, and the founding team doesn't have to be big, but it does have to cover all the risks that you have to cover for your next kind of milestone. And that's exactly how we kind of, you know, approached it. Every time, you know, we had to keep growing and you know, the way I think about it is really a jigsaw puzzle where you have to cover like a like a let's say, a square of real estate, and every puzzle piece that you put in there has to basically fit to the other puzzle pieces. It has to cover all the area and it has to be not too much overlap, right. So you kind of have to be very careful in the first like ten people make sure that they kind of have complementary skill set as they are able to get to work together and then they were able to cover all the stuff you have to do. And once you...

...have that, then a very small team can do like a lot of stuff and that's really why it startups are able to do, in general, like you know, much more innovative stuff that big companies because really the small the first founding ten people, fifteen people, are really kind of special in that sense that they're kind of working together to achieve a goal, which is really hard to do in the companies. Perfect that makes a lot of sense. You'RE gonna have to have people that can do a little bit of multitasking where we're some different hats. I love that. Yes, so we we've already covered a lot of ground. We talked about fundraising and and the pitch. We talked about product definition and value to clients. We talked about hiring. Let's talk about another milestone in building a business. Um, let's talk about scale. So what's what's the hardest part about scaling a business? That from new opinion? Yes, actually, to be honest, like I'm still learning a lot from our co CEOS like David Hatfield and J pick. They're like much better at this than me. But for me, like you know, the hardest part has always been essentially alignment, and what I mean by that is that, you know, the more people you add you get different, rich experiences which is obviously, you know, very useful, but at the same time, you know, there's also more opinions that differ and and many cases we can kind of settle the opinions through data, but many cases it's just different opinions and there's no good objective way to kind of get to like one reality. And that's really the hard part where you have to like have a lot of communications, have a lot of like shared principles, you know, shared culture, to be able to arrive at like, you know, something that on which you're aligned, because once you get alignment, then you're able to kind of execute and even if you're wrong on the goal of the alignment, you can always permit it to the right place. But without alignment you're really like a like a round boat and you're kind of, you know, rowing in different directions and you just stand still. But if you get some alignment, and at scale, like it's hard, but once you get it, then you're able to kind of go in one direction, and that's kind of the most important thing in a startup. It's so true in that alignment is really kind of a foundation for prentic culture. So I think the culture is also like one of those things where you know, everybody who comes into the company has different experiences and they bring their own strengths, uh at the same time you want to have like one culture. So I think eventually it boil down too alignment and training the new people who joined to kind of say how did we how do we operate, and how do I be able to operate in a at a point where you're able to achieve outcomes that we need to achieve? And then once the evolving process, like every time you double, the culture is going to change too, right. So we're all it's an evolving process. You're kind of always aligning to, like, you know, one goal and and those one of the goals is the shared principles on how you want to operate, right, and that's really your culture. Okay, you're perfect different. Let's talk a little bit about the space that you're in. Very competitive. Everyone's talking about security, everyone's talking about cloud. Um. How do you guys track your competition? We for a lot of different things on this podcast. Some pounders say they never look here,...

...some are very interested and what's going on outside of their company with their competitors. What are your thoughts on this? Yeah, actually so I generally do both to a degree, and let me explain why. So market is really defined by both US, like the company and the competition together, right, like we're all kind of talking to customers, were kind of understanding their pain points and together we're trying to find them on the market. And so, from that perspective, you have to totally watch your competition like all the time and kind of figure out if they figured some insight out that you didn't. Our customers, you know, told them something that you haven't heard yet. You have to really watch out for where the market is evolving and you know, kind of define the best as you can, but also kind of follow if you're not able to define it. But then when it comes to execution and you say, okay, what do we need to do for the next six months or a year, that's where you kind of ignore the competition, right, you kind of execute on your strategy, on your belief of why you would be in your differenciation. And actually that's where the execution is going to differ from your competition, because they have different strengths and they have different philosophies. But what, like, you know, you have to watch to make sure you know you're kind of aligned to the market where it's evolving, and then you have to execute, you know, with with the with your view and view, and not have to worry too much for our competition at that point. So we kind of do both in different, uh, you know, dimensions. Thank you for that. Yeah, I've never heard anyone say that the market is defined by you and your competition, which is just it just seems so basic. Exactly. Yeah, okay, so we we've covered a ton here. Victim we saying, and I like to do this thing called lightning round, which is which is kind of fun. But I don't know if there's anything that maybe we didn't cover during this conversation that that you thought would be important for for any budding entrepreneurs out there. Actually, this is one thing like which is basically, Um, it is really a marathon like and it's I know it's a cliche and people will talk about how it's an emotional roller coaster, but it really is a marathon and every time you reach a milestone you can't stop, you have to keep running and the more milestones you achieved in in fact, your speech kind of goes up right. So you really have to treat it as a marathon not get burned down, and emotionally it goes up and down. So you just have to kind of manage that. And ironically for me, like you know, my best day and the worst day at least happened to be, like, you know, the same day. So they can get crazy, but you have to just kind of manage it and then just move on and then you don't keep running. So I think anybody you know, like the best advice that I got like ten years ago from, you know, one of my mentors was really, you know, manage your emotions and just keep running right, like that's that's what you want to do, and then if you do it again over time, you build value. That's great. My Best Day in my worst day the same day. Yeah, that's like my every day. It's true. It's true. At least she gives us the impression. Okay,...

I'm saying you want to do your first lightning round. So ifim if you had to compete in an the one thing Olympic sports, clearly, talking is not mine. My God, if you had to compete in an Olympic sport right now with absolutely know training, which one would it be? Okay, so for one. I don't think I'd be competitive at all. But but if I have to compete, I would probably pick like a like swimming, where you know, you just went for a long time and then you know, eventually the goal is to got to swim as long as you can. That's what I, you know, love doing and yeah, that's what I would compete in most likely, if I had to do it today. Have you done any swimming? Any competitive swimming? Not, not competitive, but I do like I love to swim like in a leisurely way and I generally like swimming like long distances, like not really like short sprints, but like just keep swimming put an hour and a half, uh, and then that's yeah, that's ocean swims or pool swims, or perhaps the river or lake. No Pool, a tiight ocean, and it's like very hard to do unless you actually practice it a lot. But yeah, mostly for me it's just cool, like, you know, pool swimming. That's, you know, the choose lot of swimming. For me, it's swimming. For me, an Olympic sport will be terrifying for a few reasons. One is you got to wear that Speedo to it's like they're so militant about like the Miss Start, you know, like when you jump into the pool, would that gun would go off and I almost wait like an extra three seconds to jumping. I'm gonna false start. Well, and think of what you may not know is that todd has fantastic hair and would never want to wear a swim cap cover. Yeah, but there are a lot of analogies from one of the reasons why I like it is because it's kind of very similar to how a like startupsot rightly, you just have to keep running into swimming and then you know and at some point you pull the trigger and you and the clock starts then and Ye, hair or no hair, you just gotta keep doing it. It's perfect analogy. What would be your work get out of this? You expecting? Oh, I don't think that. Maybe maybe next time. Okay, Um, okay, so this one, this one is for both of you. Okay, so I've got another one here. Um, can you share what that's what you're most commonly used Emoji is? Yeah, it's probably the smiling face because, like you know, most of my communicate happens on slack or email and you know, electronic is just very hard to get emotions across right and most of the time I'm just kind of in in generally and like a smiling mode mode. So I think communicating that I've kind of learned over time is like super of Barron otherways. You know, reading... on the other side people it's very hard to figure out what the original intent was. So that's probably my most commonly used Emoji and I use it a lot. Do you want to know what line is? So so my Bhy far my most commonly used emergy is the laughing face with the tears coming out of the eyes, because you know it's laughter. I mean I love the fact that like there are so many different tears of laughter that we can text to each other. There's like the ha ha, which is like kind of mildly funny, and then the L O l, which is a little bit funnier, and then the the one that's like laughing with the tears coming out, but then like the the one that just absolutely represents sheer joy is the one that with with the one that's ruling with the tears coming off, like that's when you know like that's a that's a that's a true belly laugh right there. Yeah, that's always the solid l like run this course, because you say to yourself like is that person really laughing out loud? So you're in lying somewhere, like you know you right, or you can see that person on video and they text you l well, and you're like you actually didn't l well, my new one, which just gets said to me a lot, is the one where the person is looking down and they have their palm against their I can't believe you just said that. Ya, that's that's when I get that one a lot. Yeah, that's yeah, okay. So last one, last lightning around question. Um, are you ready to go? Take one personal sure. What's the fastest you've driven in why? I think probably like in the nineties, you know, like ninety three probably is the fastest I've gone. Okay, and I'd love to see that there was a reason, but it's mostly that, Um, when I drive the Tesla, you don't even feel the speed, but like it goes so smoothly that before you know it you're like a hundred and you didn't know how you got there. You know. Yeah, totally. We start plying and you're like a minute, I'm I'm afraid of people who get so close to me. That like my way of showing them that I'm on a sload, right, or is it totally floor? You go like a hundred, twenty miles away, like look how fast I can go. So you get pressured into speeding to it's actually probably, you know, closet sign. He's like, you know, I'm driving, and I'm like, you know, you're just driving, and then you know, it's the nineties. Now you'll get a ticket. So then you're gonna reduced. But in general, yeah, like hyades is probably like Maxi most of the time when I'm driving, like you've made us in freest to like criminal driving. Yeah, highway controls.

Listening in? Well, good. Well, this has been fun. Thank you so much for hopping out of the PODCAST by video. Fun then video. I appreciate your time today. Thank you so much, Bacrim. Trace three is hyper focused on helping I. T leaders deliver business outcomes by providing a wide variety of data center solutions and consulting services. If you're looking for emerging technology to solve tried and true business problems, trace three is here to help. We believe all possibilities live in technology. You can learn more at trace three dot com slash podcast. That's trace the number three dot com slash podcast. You've been listening to the founder formula, the podcast for all things start up, from selling in valley to innovators across the country. If you want to know what it takes to lead tomorrow's tech companies, subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time,.

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